Lord Raith: Lawbreaker?

[MijRai]

Does Lord Raith qualify for Lawbreaker? We know he has killed with magic, and used Outsiders to do so. (For those who don't remember he was involved with the ritual spell that killed one of the pornographic models in Blood Rites, and we can't forget Harry's mom. And since the ritual was backed by an Outsider, it seems like a 7th Law violation as well)
White Court Vampires do have some kind of soul, as near as we can tell (Thomas and Lara have been soulgazed in front of us), so it seems logical it can be tainted by dark magic.

[Moriden]

Can non-humans get lawbreaker?

[Tsukiomi]

I would say its up to the gm to determine wheter they qualify. I personally would say they can.

[KOFFEYKID]

I had this to say on the topic:

Rituals like the one Lord Raith did dont necessarily require any personal magic to work them. You are just performing a sequence of nonmagical events which gets the attention of an outsider who'll do you a good turn for following the instructions. Technically, if Harry's explanation is true and my logic holds up, you dont get a lawbreaker because you didn't use magic.

[sinker]

The white council's laws do not apply, however the metaphysical truths behind them might. He's already a predator who has no compunction with destroying lives to get what he wants though, so I'd likely say that he's a little beyond lawbreaker.

[sinker]

I had this to say on the topic:

Rituals like the one Lord Raith did dont necessarily require any personal magic to work them. You are just performing a sequence of nonmagical events which gets the attention of an outsider who'll do you a good turn for following the instructions. Technically, if Harry's explanation is true and my logic holds up, you dont get a lawbreaker because you didn't use magic.

Except the law is against any knowledge of outsiders. By simply asking for that power, you're breaking that law. Plus the thing with outsiders is more lovecraftian with the whole "if you are thinking of them you're bringing them closer, giving them power" sort of thing.

[Katarn]

The white council's laws do not apply, however the metaphysical truths behind them might. He's already a predator who has no compunction with destroying lives to get what he wants though, so I'd likely say that he's a little beyond lawbreaker.

Pretty sure the Laws don't apply to him, since he's not a mortal per se.  However, the Wardens would take him down anyways for being a Vampire.  I'd say they'd also whack anyone for messing around with the Outsiders.

[kihon]

The White Council's laws do not apply to him.  Lord Raith is not even human.  End of story.

[zenten]

The White Council's laws do not apply to him.  Lord Raith is not even human.  End of story.

We're not talking about the White Council's laws, we're asking if he should get the Lawbreaker stunt.

[Katarn]

We're not talking about the White Council's laws, we're asking if he should get the Lawbreaker stunt.

Hmmm... I'd contend sometimes.  Killing, at least, is part of his nature as a "monster"- it's a bigger deal for mortals I think, so they get lawbreaker.  However, some of the more "hard-core" Laws like the Outsider Law could warrant it.  I think his numerous abilities cover the costs of killing and some laws related to his nature already.  So I'd say Mind-Messing and Killing Laws wouldn't apply.  Other Laws not related to his nature (such as Outsiders) I could see an argument for.

[zenten]

Hmmm... I'd contend sometimes.  Killing, at least, is part of his nature as a "monster"- it's a bigger deal for mortals I think, so they get lawbreaker.  However, some of the more "hard-core" Laws like the Outsider Law could warrant it.  I think his numerous abilities cover the costs of killing and some laws related to his nature already.  So I'd say Mind-Messing and Killing Laws wouldn't apply.  Other Laws not related to his nature (such as Outsiders) I could see an argument for.

Well, he pretty clearly has a negative refresh, so it's just a question of if he gets the bonus from the Lawbreaker power.

[devonapple]

White Court Vampires, even the nice ones, already have a DEMON inside them. DEMON! A shiny, silvery, evil evil demon! What could possibly be worse than having that Hunger inside you, motivating you to seduce, ensnare, trap and kill mortals? At that point, 7th Law is mostly about alliances and short-term thinking than it could possibly be about a tainted psyche.

[bobjob]

We're not talking about the White Council's laws, we're asking if he should get the Lawbreaker stunt.

I'm pretty sure one begets the other, but I'm going with no. He's not mortal and not subject to the laws of the White Council (although the Evil Eye Cult he supplied the ritual with would be subject to those Laws and Lawbreaker stunts, which I believe they gave Madge Shelley). I also agree with Koffeykid's reasoning as it is also my own understanding of the source material. Rituals such as what Lord Raith and the Evil Eye Cult did are similar to magic vending machines. You put in the offering and the intent and in return get the power. That's the reason the White Council tries to publish new rituals, since it makes it harder on the being supplying the power and you end up getting weaker results or no results at all.

Side Note: In Back Up, since Lara and Thomas are Venators, do you think that Lord Raith may have used knowledge gleaned through that connection to get his ritual and maybe even his anti-magic shield that seems to be supplied by He Who Walks Behind?

[Bruce Coulson]

The Laws of Magic are specifically applied to mortals.  As, I would assume, are any Stunts that might stem from them.  So, Lord Raith is a monster; but not a Lawbreaker in either the legal White Council sense or the Lawbreaker sense.

[devonapple]

So, Lord Raith is a monster; but not a Lawbreaker in either the legal White Council sense or the Lawbreaker sense.

But, and I don't think any of us is disagreeing, he may still be an Enemy or at least a Threat for such actions.