Losing True Believer Powers

[mithrandirthewhite]

Maybe he'll be a Bieber fan and then consider Beiber a phony and then the world will be a better place .

[noclue]

Just clarifying, are you having an issue with how the player is behaving or are you cool with the stuff he's doing? I can't tell. Did you guys reach an understanding during character gen about what kind of person his PC would be?

By the way, what's the character's High Concept and Trouble?

[Drachasor]

He has never killed an 'innocent' directly but there have been situation where I set up a Mexican standoff with vampires and the vampires were using a bunch of college students as shields, the vamps were like 'don't come any closer or we will kill them all' he said 'meh' and jumped the distance between them beheading the vamp in one stroke and got the students killed in the crossfire, when the others in the party asked if that was necessary he replied "very". Then there was the time he accepted a job from a fae no less to kill a rogue pixie, before taking the job he asked was the pixie evil to which the fae replied "you could say that" and his response was "good enough for me".

Why was he doing a job for a Fae to begin with?  Does he do pretty much any job that comes his way?  Under what circumstances would he not do it?  Does he consider the lives of fae to not really matter since they aren't people?

Obviously he's some kind of monster.  If you want to press the point you could have a Knight of the Cross show up....because no Knight of the Cross would get along with him.

[toturi]

The real trouble is that as he is he fits better into the group dynamics than as a real true believer, the party are all DD players so they are all into hitting stuff till it dies screaming and are all playing morally ambivalent characters, so if I forced my true believer to act like a true believer I would be isolating him from the rest of the party.

How does the rest of the group feel about his character's behavior? Do they also think that he isn't acting like a "real" true believer? Or can they accept such behavior? Do they see that how he acts is in accordance to being true to his beliefs?

He has never killed an 'innocent' directly but there have been situation where I set up a Mexican standoff with vampires and the vampires were using a bunch of college students as shields, the vamps were like 'don't come any closer or we will kill them all' he said 'meh' and jumped the distance between them beheading the vamp in one stroke and got the students killed in the crossfire, when the others in the party asked if that was necessary he replied "very". Then there was the time he accepted a job from a fae no less to kill a rogue pixie, before taking the job he asked was the pixie evil to which the fae replied "you could say that" and his response was "good enough for me".

How did the party take his replies? Did they think that he was acting out of character for a true believer?

[Drachasor]

How does the rest of the group feel about his character's behavior? Do they also think that he isn't acting like a "real" true believer? Or can they accept such behavior? Do they see that how he acts is in accordance to being true to his beliefs?

Most importantly is whether they are ok with his behavior.  If they think it is out of character, then that's not as important as whether they are ok with the consequences of what he is doing.  He's playing a jackass Fist of God-type...and history has had truly religious people that have acted a lot worse.

[HobbitGuy1420]

The issue with that, Drachasor, is that being a True Believer and/or Champion of God isn't about being Religious, as I understand it.  It's about living the faith you believe in.  This is why Sanya, who isn't even Christian, has a Sword of the Cross.  I feel that if someone is acting as a champion of the faith but behaving in ways that are counter to the virtues specified in their faith, then they should at the *very* least get a heavenly messenger with a sobering wake-up call.

[Drachasor]

The issue with that, Drachasor, is that being a True Believer and/or Champion of God isn't about being Religious, as I understand it.  It's about living the faith you believe in.  This is why Sanya, who isn't even Christian, has a Sword of the Cross.  I feel that if someone is acting as a champion of the faith but behaving in ways that are counter to the virtues specified in their faith, then they should at the *very* least get a heavenly messenger with a sobering wake-up call.

The White God picks people who believe in his general point of view about helping and enabling people.  Being a Knight of the Cross isn't about religious belief at all.  One might say that Sanya does have True Believer in certain moral precepts though which align with those of the White God and other Knights of the Cross.

There isn't necessarily a reason to think any given religious person, even deeply religious person, would get along well with the White God.  Heck, the Bible doesn't get along well with the White God a lot of the time...at least with the things he current supports in the Dresden books.  There's a lot of nasty, bigoted stuff in there.  Sensible Christians ignore those parts, but that doesn't make them not exist and it doesn't mean there aren't or haven't been a lot of people using those passages to support their terrible points of view.  As the book outlines it, True Faith isn't about one creed, it is about believing in something bigger than you are and perhaps in some sense unknowable (though Sanya might disagree on the latter part).  A complete monster can do that just as well as someone nice (I'd say "saint" here, but in the books Saint Patrick does at least one horribly evil thing).  There's no particular reason such beliefs need the backing of those whom you think they are about or those we think they are about.

[noclue]

The issue with that, Drachasor, is that being a True Believer and/or Champion of God isn't about being Religious, as I understand it.  It's about living the faith you believe in.  This is why Sanya, who isn't even Christian, has a Sword of the Cross.  I feel that if someone is acting as a champion of the faith but behaving in ways that are counter to the virtues specified in their faith, then they should at the *very* least get a heavenly messenger with a sobering wake-up call.

Well, the first question is what was everyone's understanding of this character during chargen. Did the GM understand that he was going to be playing a mercenary with little compunction, or did he describe the character as a Champion of God. Character creation in DFRPG is not a solitary venture. It's collaborative. If he created a True Believer type and has arbitrarily abandoned that character to just do whatever. It's a player issue and needs to be addressed outside of game mechanics. So, I'd really like to see his aspects.

[Richard_Chilton]

Name the faith and you can find a dozen variants of it, all claiming to be the one true way.

For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_religious_movements list quiet few different sects that all see themselves as the correct one.

If you look at Christianity there are literally thousands of sects out there - all with different beliefs about what "the White God" (as Mab names him) wants.

Looking at other literacy examples, Jim Butcher mentions that he reads Simon R Green, and Simon R Green recently had a book where the Walking Man (the wrath of God among men) arrived in the Nightside, bringing death to the wicked.  He's called the Walking Man because when he comes for you he walks in a straight line - nothing can stop him and he can kill practically anything while nothing can harm him.  When various targets talk about repenting and God's forgiveness, the Walking Man calmly says "Not my department" and kills them.   When other representatives of God try to talk to him the Walking Man basically ignores them - because they aren't his department.  Narrow vision and armed with the Wrath of God - that's interesting take on a soldier of God.  I'm thinking maybe Morgan as a Knight of the Cross.

Or to put things another way - we are a group of gamers posting on a board that frowns on "touchy topics".  We are not theologians.  We are not going be able to determine the "real" agenda of God as presented in the Dresden Files.  Not in a way that we all agree on.  Not in a way that everyone who follows Him would agree on.  Not now and not ever.

I can't even point out areas where faiths disagree without touching on topics that have no place on this board - but I'll give one example of a sect that's trying to make up its mind on a topic.   The Episcopal Church / Church of England / Anglican Communion (which is all one group under different names) is currently debating same-sex marriages along with openly gay clergy and bishops.  They've been debating it since at least 1998 and since parts of the group are moving in different directions they are tearing themselves apart.  They are led by theologians and they dive head first into touchy topics, and they can't make a call on that one issue.  They can't even seem to come up with a compromise that is more than "let's agree to keep talking".

If they can't come up with an answer to that one, small issue, then we can't come up with the broad goals of how God is portrayed in the Dresden Files.  I mean, he has a black ops archangel and holy warriors who kill monsters, warlocks, and other "evil" people - name a sect whose vision of God encompass all that.

What's left? The group in question deciding if someone is playing in character for what the group thinks is the message is supposed to be.

Richard

[Drachasor]

Or to put things another way - we are a group of gamers posting on a board that frowns on "touchy topics".  We are not theologians.  We are not going be able to determine the "real" agenda of God as presented in the Dresden Files.  Not in a way that we all agree on.  Not in a way that everyone who follows Him would agree on.  Not now and not ever.

Err, right.  I get in trouble on the other forums on here because I don't have a problem with touchy topics or slightly heated conversations.  We probably shouldn't talk about this anymore or a mod will come in and send me a warning about my inappropriate posts.

Gah, or maybe this is an inappropriate post.  This place can be overly sensitive.  Thankfully it doesn't seem to touch the RPG section much.

In any case, a particular deity backing you in the DV (my shorthand for the dresdenverse) doesn't even mean you believe in them and Sanya is an example.  There's no particular reason that your True Faith powers actually need to match up to a given deity you might think they do in the DV either.

[bitterpill]

I really didn't have a problem with how the character actually acting is providing all sorts of fallout for later in the game and as he is not picking fights with the rest of the party so they are ok with him acting chaotic neutral rather than lawful good. The only reason I had a problem with his true faith abilities is because I am not sure a character who being roleplayed as venal self-serving and just a little bit sadistic should have a power called righteousness.   

Oh his high concept was
True Sword of God
His trouble was
Only Human

[Richard_Chilton]

Venal and self-serving is one of the best descriptions of "Only Human" I've seen recently.

Much better than the American adaptation of the British show - but I really should watch more than five minutes before making that judgment.

As for touchy topics - it doesn't get much more touchy than trying to define someone's faith - especially if you draw examples from more than 20 years ago...

Richard
(who deleted several example before finding one that he thought wouldn't offend anyone - and it was hard to find that one)

[Drachasor]

I really didn't have a problem with how the character actually acting is providing all sorts of fallout for later in the game and as he is not picking fights with the rest of the party so they are ok with him acting chaotic neutral rather than lawful good. The only reason I had a problem with his true faith abilities is because I am not sure a character who being roleplayed as venal self-serving and just a little bit sadistic should have a power called righteousness.   

Oh his high concept was
True Sword of God
His trouble was
Only Human

Hmm, his trouble should be "Kind of a monster" or "Has no heart."

As for righteousness, maybe you should change the name.

Hmm, does the PLAYER understand that not giving a dang about people's lives and such is not very ethical?  (Ethics and faith are two separate things, remember).  It does seem like a problem if the character doesn't actually have any beliefs.  Maybe you should sit down and try to figure that part out.  If his faith tells him it is ok to be venal and a total jerk, then that can potentially be alright.  Kind of odd for the Abrahamic Religions (at the very least they've been big proponents of their own communities).  Seems like he'd make a lot more sense as a worshiper of some god of battle that believed you had to test yourself in conflict and you could only find any inkling of true meaning that way -- guys like that can be real psychopaths.

Hmm, does he honor the deals he makes or does he break them if they are slightly inconvenient?  (Just asking for law/chaos purposes).

There is a really big problem if his aspects and behavior don't match up.  What are his other aspects?  What does he mean by "True Sword of God"?  Has he read the Dresden books?

Seems like the main problem might be the character (considering his sheet and in play) is too incoherent, and perhaps the player doesn't realize that.

[Drachasor]

Venal and self-serving is one of the best descriptions of "Only Human" I've seen recently.

Eh, altruism, self-sacrifice, kindness and such is only human as well.

[bitterpill]

The character was true believer who had his family killed by Vampires and so permanently linked his faith to the destruction of monsters as its primary goal (though his definition of monsters is not defined very well) he is a character ruthlessly seeking vengeance and using his faith as an excuse. As a character though he is moving further and further away from a faith based justification and is now pretty much at the level of he is this because he wants too which was why the change in his powers came up, as at the moment the only thing his character seems to believe in is himself and his revenge.