How would you run "Immunity/Toughness to True Magic"?

[ironpoet]

If the player gets to roll to hit the immune character, it's probably a direct magical attack. It doesn't really matter if they're flinging stones, shooting lightning bolts, or increasing the air pressure to crush the target. Those things are narrative spray paint over the fact that the player is making a magical attack.

If the player isn't rolling to directly hit the immune character, it might not count as a magical attack. This is blowing up a building so that stone chunks fall or lighting it on fire. Anyone in the area is then subject to the risks of environmental damage.

That was my initial thinking as well.  It would nicely solve my mechanical problem (How would I run this?)  But I couldn't think of how I would describe the difference between, say, a magically thrown rock vs. a normally thrown rock.

If you were running using these rules, how would you describe it, flavor-wise?  What are some ways to describe an invulnerabilty to magically hurled rocks, but a vulnerability to a collapsing building?  Do the magical attacks just miss?  Do they fizzle before they are even cast?

[ironpoet]

Compromise:
Require an attacking Wizard to Invoke for Effect an existing (or created) environmental feature in order to bypass the Toughness.

This still leaves it in the GM's hands to approve or deny, and will cost the Wizard a Fate Point if they are not able to free-tag the environmental feature.

I think it's a nice, consistent rule, but I'm worried about how you a GM would consistenly approve or deny that sort of thing.  If I'm an Earth Wizard, I'm going to feel cheated if I can attack with stuff lying around, because there's *always* stuff lying around.  On the other hand, if I'm a Magic Immune/Tough character, I'm going to feel cheated if my immunity can be bypassed that easily.

I'm leaning towards TheMouse's suggestion, since it takes GM arbitration out of the equation, and it makes the toughness/immunity a little harder to bypass.

[Drachasor]

That was my initial thinking as well.  It would nicely solve my mechanical problem (How would I run this?)  But I couldn't think of how I would describe the difference between, say, a magically thrown rock vs. a normally thrown rock.

If you were running using these rules, how would you describe it, flavor-wise?  What are some ways to describe an invulnerabilty to magically hurled rocks, but a vulnerability to a collapsing building?  Do the magical attacks just miss?  Do they fizzle before they are even cast?

The rocks rapidly move to the ogre, then immediately stop and fall to the ground harmlessly when they hit him (all momentum in them was magical).  That's one way to go.

[ironpoet]

The rocks rapidly move to the ogre, then immediately stop and fall to the ground harmlessly when they hit him (all momentum in them was magical).  That's one way to go.

Nice!  I like that take on magical momentum.

[Moriden]

The rocks rapidly move to the ogre, then immediately stop and fall to the ground harmlessly when they hit him (all momentum in them was magical).  That's one way to go.

and if you simply drop a 2 ton boulder on him?

[Kommisar]

Considering the price of this Immunity (3 Refresh; 8 Physical Immunity - 5 for the Catch) I would take the approach that any attack, maneuver or block using mortal magic against this target just fails.  Or fizzles.  Or whatever.  Regardless of how it is phrased or set up.

The only thing I would allow would be indirect uses of magic against a target with this Immunity.  The most obvious method of doing this would be, as many have said, through creating and then compelling / invoking scene aspects.  An Ogre, for example, could see through your veil.  But, you could kick up a dust storm or something to obscure your whereabouts.  You wouldn't be able to knock him down with a force push evocation.  But, you could use that force push to knock over a bucket of ball bearings (probably have to drop a Fate Point here... but hey; life ain't fair!) to create the scene aspect "Unsure Footing".

But, anything that is a direct roll using magic against the target, Immunity kicks in.

[devonapple]

and if you simply drop a 2 ton boulder on him?

You still have to hit the target - this is one of those things where Declarations, Maneuvers and Aspects are going to have to do some of the lifting, as those reflect Plot Importance in a game system which doesn't pretend to be perfectly simulationist.

[Moriden]

You still have to hit the target - this is one of those things where Declarations, Maneuvers and Aspects are going to have to do some of the lifting, as those reflect Plot Importance in a game system which doesn't pretend to be perfectly simulationist.

Hitting is what attack rolls are for. Personally id let a magician who knows the catch word his attacks in any effective way and then treat as normal. requiring declarations or fate points works as well. This is something i think that people will always have different views on so its likely going to have to come down to whichever perspective the dm likes most.

[Kommisar]

As you said, everyone can run it how they wish in their games.   

But, IMHO, having Immunity Powers, which are fairly expensive, negated by creative wording alone just... doesn't feel right.  It seems to take away from the game and ruin a great chance to make one's players work for the "Big Win".

[devonapple]

But, IMHO, having Immunity Powers, which are fairly expensive, negated by creative wording alone just... doesn't feel right.  It seems to take away from the game and ruin a great chance to make one's players work for the "Big Win".

Well, sure: there's creative wording; there's creative use of the environment; and there's creative use of tearing up the immediate environment and potentially causing additional problems.

Villains who realize a PC won't hesitate to destroy a city block can use that to their advantage, by luring the PC into a situation in which his destructive approach will get him into real trouble with mortal authorities. Conversely, a villain who Concedes after getting a building dropped on him may work harder to make sure the next confrontation appears on *his* terms, where the Wizard has less access to whatever he had been using to spank the monster earlier.

But I digress. I think you're right in that we have pretty much covered the continuum of how this can be handled. And I agree that Munchkin behavior can diminish the impact of overcoming an obstacle in *any* game system. But I think folks have come up with some compelling arguments across the board.

[bitterpill]

I think launching iron ball bearings at any enemy with wind magic/spirit magic would get past Immunity to Magic, iron balls launched from a gun and iron balls launched by magic are both when it gets down to it just high velocity iron bullets and so should have the same effect. I also thought that Physical Immunity only made you immune to the physical stress and consequences caused by magic not from manoeuvres etc (the example showing this in the book was when Harry hit the Loup Garou with Air the first time the Loup Garou still went flying even though his catch was not fulfilled) so technically you could use magic to throw someone off a bridge and though they would not take damage from the magic the fall is another story entirely. 

[Drachasor]

and if you simply drop a 2 ton boulder on him?

I've changed my mind on this.

Hmm, well, technically, looking at the rules, I'm not sure Earth Magic lets you just fling rocks at people.  In fact, the magic by default in Dresden seems to not involve manipulating objects, but rather creating forces related to it (earth lets you manipulate gravity and electromagnetism).*

So throwing a rock can be done one of two basic ways ignoring what element you do.  You create a rock from nothing and throw it or you find a rock to throw.  The former rock is like magical fire, and would just disappear when it hit something immune to magic.  The second rock would seem like a good way to hurt something, but you need to FIND that rock to throw it and then you have to Invoke For Effect with a spell.  I think that's fair.  As a GM I'd lean towards having the object pretty much destroyed after use, and probably have small objects harder to use as effective weapons in this matter.  The rules don't really go over this in much detail.  I suppose one way to look at it might be the magic roll is essentially used to lift and toss the object, and discipline is used to attack.  If you hit it is treated as a weapon hit, with a weapon rating equal to the object's.  That seems about right and it makes such guys pretty difficult to deal with.

*Ironically, in the real world that covers pretty much everything we experience in everyday life.

[sinker]

Something to consider if you already haven't. A wizard is likely to be used to simply guiding something all the way to the target because that's the most reliable means of hitting something. What happens when the wizard starts using essentially a magic canon, but with imperfect projectiles and no reliable means of aiming? Just a thought, which may or may not be relevant to the OP.

[bitterpill]

Something to consider if you already haven't. A wizard is likely to be used to simply guiding something all the way to the target because that's the most reliable means of hitting something. What happens when the wizard starts using essentially a magic canon, but with imperfect projectiles and no reliable means of aiming? Just a thought, which may or may not be relevant to the OP.

The only way to take into account that effect is to either put a negative modifier on accuracy or have the enemy make a declaration of inaccuracy and tag that for a +2 to defence, either way unless the wizard takes fallout the projectiles (ball bearings all the way) should go roughly where the wizard sent them.

[zenten]

I think launching iron ball bearings at any enemy with wind magic/spirit magic would get past Immunity to Magic, iron balls launched from a gun and iron balls launched by magic are both when it gets down to it just high velocity iron bullets and so should have the same effect. I also thought that Physical Immunity only made you immune to the physical stress and consequences caused by magic not from manoeuvres etc (the example showing this in the book was when Harry hit the Loup Garou with Air the first time the Loup Garou still went flying even though his catch was not fulfilled) so technically you could use magic to throw someone off a bridge and though they would not take damage from the magic the fall is another story entirely. 

I'm with you on iron ball bearing specifically against Ogres, but that's because iron is a different Catch for the Fae.