Vehicles In Combat

[Sanctaphrax]

Has anyone given thought to methods of handling the use of vehicles in combat? I just read a bit about the use of chariots in ancient warfare, and it got me thinking.

Here's how I think I'll handle it:

Each vehicle (be it a horse, a chariot, a car, or a helicopter) has one driver and a reasonable number of passengers. All of these characters must stay in the same zone at all times. The driver's Driving (or Survival) skill restricts all rolls made by characters in the vehicle. The only character who can move is the driver, and when he moves all other characters in the vehicle must follow. In addition, many vehicles can be used as weapons (Weapon 2 or 3 for a horse, weapon 4 or 5 for a car). Moving or attacking with vehicles uses Driving (or Survival) instead of the normal skill. Entering or leaving a vehicle requires an action, but has no chance of failure unless somebody tries to oppose it.

I think that almost everything else can be covered with aspects. But I'm not sure how to handle situations where the driver and the passengers aren't on the same side.

Thoughts?

[devonapple]

What sort of situations are you envisioning?

[Sanctaphrax]

A guy on a horse vs a guy on foot.

A car full of mobsters trying to gun down some fey.

Two old-fashioned armies clashing, both using cavalry and chariots.

Come to think of it, this set of rules doesn't do much for vehicles with only one person in/on them. Any ideas on how to make that less of a problem?

[devonapple]

A guy on a horse vs a guy on foot.

Some thoughts:
Substitute the horse's Athletics for the rider's for moving between Zones, which *may* give the rider an advantage in relative positioning, if they aren't *there* to be hit when it comes time for the guy on foot to attack.
Have the horse's stats Modify a rider's skill check (gaining a +1 to appropriate attack or defense rolls).
Allow the rider to make a move and attack without the -1 penalty for a Supplemental action because it is the horse doing the moving.
Have the horse rolling the defense checks, or have the horse's stats Modify a rider's defense check.
Or any combination of the above.

A car full of mobsters trying to gun down some fey.

The two advantage mechanisms are:
The car allows the mobsters to attack and get away with minimal chance of counterattack, which would be reflected in Zone Movement, possibly using Athletics.
The other advantage is relative defense, so the car could count as Armor 1-3 against attacks (the occupants could follow up with their own dodge ability if the Armor block is bypassed).

Two old-fashioned armies clashing, both using cavalry and chariots.

My instinct says this should just be plot background. The outcome of a battle such as this, in a story told at the scale of DFRPG, shouldn't be random, or if the outcome needs to be uncertain, tie it to the PCs' success or failure. Plot expedience should determine which side wins, depending on whether the next step is for the heroes to:
- find another way to win
- simply survive adversity
- follow through on their victory and end the conflict once and for all
- etc.

Strands of Fate has a whole system for dealing with Vehicles. Sadly, my main goal was to figure out how to make a bicycle an asset in a similar conflict, but it didn't scale that far down.

[arete]

there are vehicle rules in Star Blazers and Strands of Fate that you might find useful.

[Katarn]

You definitely need to stat out the vehicles- physical stress only.  A spell can take down a car, but it's harder.  The scale would be higher (obviously, a car takes a hit better than a mortal does).  Consider weaknesses on a car- like the wheels or the driver.

For passengers, Go with Driving skills (with Survival and Guns, Discipline as needed).  Are the car's other occupants casting spells (higher discipline roll due to moving car, combat, the like).

[bitterpill]

Do not forget Hexing.

[Kommisar]

I would also give a mounted character that was using an appropriate weapon (large melee weapons) an additional +1 to their weapon rating.  Additionally, I would only give them a bonus to their armor against melee weapons.  After all, the cops can shoot a guy off a horse just fine.  Knocking him off or even hitting him with a baton is a whole other matter.  So, if I were making the call I would go with this for mounted:

- +1 Weapon rating for any large melee weapon (no daggers folks)
- +1 Armor rating against unmounted melee attacks
- Use Horses Athletics and Endurance for movement
- Moving does not count as a supplemental action.
- Unless this is a trained warhorse, rider must make a Survival skill check to move into combat on the horse and would have the Aspect Skittish while involved in combat.

As for the horse making attacks, this would be on the GM unless, again, this is a trained warhorse.  Not many of those around anymore. 

Hope that helps some.

[Sanctaphrax]

I appreciate the responses, but unfortunately most of them just aren't what I'm looking for. Here are my objectives:

1. To have a single system that is applicable to all fights in which at least one party has a vehicle.
2. To have that system make logical sense.
3. To avoid needing stats for every horse or every car beyond those needed for ordinary weapons and armour.
4. To avoid piling up situational modifiers.

Thinking it over, I have three things to add/change that ought to make vehicles more worthwhile:
1. Vehicles can have armour ratings in addition to weapon ratings. A horse might be armour 1 vs melee, an armoured car might be armour 3 vs almost everything.
2. Being in a vehicle or mounted is an aspect and can be tagged once.
3. A driver can move one zone with no action or sprint (using Driving or Survival) with a supplemental action.

I think that attempts to damage or destroy vehicles can be handled as maneuvers. I'm still debating whether Driving should be usable as a defence. And I now wish that I owned Strands Of Fate.

[devonapple]

I think that attempts to damage or destroy vehicles can be handled as maneuvers. I'm still debating whether Driving should be usable as a defence. And I now wish that I owned Strands Of Fate.

Don't worry about it too much - I'm finding much of the "crunch" of SoF to be somewhat incompatible with DFRPG. Their vehicle chapter *is* a good example of the FATE fractal, however.

I think the type of challenge you want to present will determine the way to run it in game. Any single one of these situations can be handled a variety of ways in a story, depending on the rhetorical impact it is intended to produce. And in-game, the players may also offer creative ways to "solve" a particular problem. I think the lowest common denominators are Aspects, Fate Points, Invokes, Tags, Compels, etc.

Edit: which sounds like I'm saying "don't bother" with the rules, but I certainly don't mean it that way.

[Sanctaphrax]

You have a point, but I really want a set of consistent rules. I think that you should be able to play a horse-riding knight as a PC, and that doesn't seem to be possible at present.

[Kommisar]

I disagree.  I think you could easily play a mounted PC.  The question is how to do it.

Also, I'm not exactly sure you really know what you want here.  You want a comprehensive, logical rules system for vehicle/mounted combat that avoids creating stats and situational modifiers.  Perhaps it is the engineer in me and, more likely, that I am missing something, but those two criteria seem to be at odds.

What we have now (RAW) is a system that does not hand us a vehicle stats and situational modifiers.  You pull out, as Devon said, Aspects, Invokes, Tags and Compels.  I would throw Maneuvers in there as well with the vehicle/mount providing the justification for that maneuver.

If you want more than that, in my mind, would require creating stats and situational modifiers.

 

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't want stats beyond those already possessed by equipment. Weapon and armour ratings are fine, aspects are fine, quality ratings are fine, other things probably aren't.

And while I don't want situational modifiers, I'm fine with changing rules. For examples, check out what I've already posted.

[devonapple]

I would through Maneuvers in there as well with the vehicle/mount providing the justification for that maneuver.

Indeed!
Make an Athletics check for the Sticky Aspect "Skilled Horseman" or "Charge!!!!!" which can be free-tagged for an initial attack bonus.
Make a Driving check for the Sticky Aspect "Skilled Wheelman" or "Gun it!" which can be free-tagged for a getaway bonus (whichever roll that occurs).
Make a Resources, Burglary or Contacts check for the Sticky Aspect "Big Car" and free-tag it for a +2 to a dodge roll.

I think statting up a Horse was already done somewhere.. can't possibly think of where... ::looks at Sanctaphrax's tagline::

Oh, maybe here

[Kommisar]

I always gravitate to Maneuvers a lot as that has been the part of the game that my players have latched onto and grasped the best so far.  They are still shaky at best with Declarations and Compels.

As for Sanctaphrax, gotcha.  Handing out a Weapon or Armor Rating when needed is fairly easy.  Same with Aspects.  Just did that for a horse a few posts back.  So, what about that did you not like or didn't work for you?  What was missing or to much?  Mind you that one could just say that the Weapon and Armor ratings given are without conditions and you get them regardless.  Those are more my spin on it after all.