Sponcered Magic ideas.

[Ren]

So if it was JUST channeling the cost would only be [-2]?
Plus the required [-1] for "Marked by Power" ?
So the total would thus be [-3] same cost as full Evocation just to be able to freely tag an aspect but incur a debt as a result, a trade-off that should really pay for itself. Oh wait you also get the +1 to certain social situations if those people know who you are.

[Tedronai]

Marked by Power is not NECESSARILY required, if the concept justifies its absence.  If taken, however, it does provide a significant bonus (+1 to ALL social rolls with those that are 'in-the-know')  That's far more than you'd get from any stunt, even with the potential downside of being viewed as a representative first and an individual second

you'd also reasonably be able to expect at least something in the theme of the 'fringe benefits' of sponsored magic (the thoughness-downgrading, the free specializations, etc)

[DFJunkie]

ie. simply allow the 'shell game' of thaumaturgy-with-evocation's-speed-and-methods to create more varied focused practitioners and specialist wizards/sorcerers?

Yep.  I probably wouldn't allow it for starting PCs, but I can definitely see allowing senior wizards to have a specialty field of magic where they are just that slick.  Of course, on second thought I'm not positive that you could be that good at something like magic, which is a function of belief and will, without changing your thinking somewhat (see below).

...THAT'd cause some political turmoil in the Council if it came to light...

Maybe.  Then again, maybe not.  It could be well known, at least among the higher echelons of practitioners, that attaining a very high level of skill with a given type of magic will color the way you think about everything else.  That essentially what I think Kemmlerian Necromancy already does.  By learning Kemmler's lessons and internalizing them to the point where a person can put them into practice that person will fundamentally change himself, to the point where his own twisted soul becomes his "sponsor."  Yes, the sponsor is not an outside agency, but that doesn't mean there's nothing compelling the Necromancer to ever lower depths of depravity.

Of course, I could be completely wrong and Old Man Kemmler could be sitting in his grim Netherworld fortress trading power with those who practice his Art, waiting for the day he shatters the borders between life and death and becomes the immortal ruler of the universe.

That works too.

[Tedronai]

Yep.  I probably wouldn't allow it for starting PCs, but I can definitely see allowing senior wizards to have a specialty field of magic where they are just that slick.  Of course, on second thought I'm not positive that you could be that good at something like magic, which is a function of belief and will, without changing your thinking somewhat (see below).

I actually think it's more useful (to the game), and more flavourful, to have it available particularly FOR starting PCs (or as the primary source of their magical talents, at least), allowing a much greater range of focused practitioners, rather than merely as a (relatively minor, at that point) boost in power for the folks at the top of their game

[DFJunkie]

I actually think it's more useful (to the game), and more flavourful, to have it available particularly FOR starting PCs (or as the primary source of their magical talents, at least), allowing a much greater range of focused practitioners, rather than merely as a (relatively minor, at that point) boost in power for the folks at the top of their game

Oh sure, that angle is actually pretty cool.  I would forbid it to starting Wizards, or really most PC wizards, since when I started my post I was thinking of it in terms of "mastering a specific sphere of magic to such a degree that it becomes second nature."

Actually, adding it to Channeling and Ritual is fantastic, because thus far the way that Focused Practitioners use magic and the way Harry talks about them ("Mort does things I can't understand" etc.) just aren't supported by the rules.  If you throw in the sponsored magic angle it allows for Focused Practitioners to achieve a level of mastery equal to that of an actual wizard in their field.

[Moriden]

So if it was JUST channeling the cost would only be [-2]?

What *exactly do you want it to do ren? if literally the only thing you want is channeling for x element then just buy channeling.

[Tedronai]

What *exactly do you want it to do ren? if literally the only thing you want is channeling for x element then just buy channeling.

Channeling [X] thaumaturgical grouping with evocation's speed and methods would be the most obvious benefit
ie. what the book calls the 'shell game'

[Moriden]

Channeling [X] thaumaturgical grouping with evocation's speed and methods would be the most obvious benefit
ie. what the book calls the 'shell game'

Using the current iteration of the system we've come up with you'd be looking at.

Ability to take sponsor debt to invoke an Aspect for spellcasting without spending a Fate Point [free]
Access to Channeling for sponsor's element [1]
Specific types of thaumaturgy at evocation speeds [1]

With the standard reduction if you also have thaum/evocation.

It would be described as something like
Dresdenian Pyromancy  
Having tapped into the terrifyingly great wellspring of fire magic that is Dresdenian Pyromancy you can cast fire magics with unparalleled scope and breath.
System
The character may use Dresdenian Pyromancy as the element of fire for the purposes of evocation, as well as cast any form of thaumaturgy that incorporates fire as an integral element with evocations speed and methods. The character also receives 4 focus item slots if he does not already have thuamaturgy or evocation, reduce a appropriate if he does.

As to cost your looking at something like 2, possibly more depending on how highly you value the focus item slots. Personally using this example i would reduce the focus item slots it gives to 2, give it a base cost of 2. explicitly state that the 2 focus item slots are the ones you'd receive from evocation, meaning that you only get a -1 to this power if you latter pick up evocation and call it a day.

[Tedronai]

The problem with that example being that is gives both everything you'd get from Channeling the element of fire AND anything you can justify as a thaumaturgical effect 'using fire as an integral element'

Swapping out Channeling's usual elemental selection for, say Summoning and Binding, or Conjuration, or Transportation and Worldwalking, for instance, would be far less versatile, and likely not warranting the same increase in costs

[Moriden]

I'm not really sure how much thaumaturgical use you'd really get out of "fire". Summoning fire spirits probably, any kind of large scale fire attack ritual. I cant really think of anything else.

Admittedly the example is finicky due to Ren's request for it to give you "just channeling". it seems to me that the sponsored magic mechanics work best when they modify thaumatirgy as opposed to modifying evocation/channeling.

[Richard_Chilton]

What thaumaturgical stuff could you do with fire? Hmmm....

You could heat buildings, dry up water, control fires (which would Dresden would love to do), possible put out fires...  Some systems of magic link the elements to certain types of spells - and in some of those fire can do healing (burning out the sickness).  Maybe conjure Fire Elements from the Nevernever.  You might be able to weave fire through spells like Dresden weaves Soulfire (to a lesser extent though).  Build fire into wards.  Make enchanted items that heat the area or toss flames.  Tag nearby flames for bonuses.

These are off the top of my - I'm sure if someone really wanted to go looking that they could find 101 thaumaturgical uses for fire.

Richard

[EdgeOfDreams]

What thaumaturgical stuff could you do with fire? Hmmm....

You could heat buildings, dry up water, control fires (which would Dresden would love to do), possible put out fires...  Some systems of magic link the elements to certain types of spells - and in some of those fire can do healing (burning out the sickness).  Maybe conjure Fire Elements from the Nevernever.  You might be able to weave fire through spells like Dresden weaves Soulfire (to a lesser extent though).  Build fire into wards.  Make enchanted items that heat the area or toss flames.  Tag nearby flames for bonuses.

These are off the top of my - I'm sure if someone really wanted to go looking that they could find 101 thaumaturgical uses for fire.

Richard

I actually ran a very entertaining character that was the Emissary of the Great Phoenix (Agenda: Burn the entire world to ashes so it can be reborn anew) with fitting Sponsored Magic.  We decided that his fire had thematic elements of both destruction and purification.  Most he just threw fireballs around, but the purifying aspect was applied to exorcisms on occasion.

[Ren]

I was using just Channeling as a zero-level to determine the actual cost of sponsored magic itself, which is apparently -0?

I'm actually working out some ideas for a friend of mine who will be joining my ongoing campaign with a very specific and interesting concept. I'll have to post more on it later in a separate thread as it raises some additional questions.

[Moriden]

I was using just Channeling as a zero-level to determine the actual cost of sponsored magic itself, which is apparently

    * ?

You get what you pay for, minimum one.

[Eldritch Donut]

If I may interject with a new question on this topic...

Where is the 'standard package' detailed? I've looked in the supernatural powers and spellcasting section, but I can't find it. I'm wondering if this is something added after the pre-order version?

EDIT: And another question... If a character already has evocation and accepts Seelie magic, the cost for Seelie Magic is then [-3]? [-1] for tacking on the power source to Evocation and an additional [-2] for the Seelie 'ritual' component?