Sponcered Magic ideas.

[Warpmind]

Let me clarify something; related to Bobjob's question. The 26-shift Spell was in my game and was an Evocation not Thaumaturgy, though sponsored magic was involved. I'd like to break this down further in light of our last session where a 39-shift attack was pulled off by the same character. I'm going to break it down here because something doesn't seem right about it and as it has currently caused a huge rift in our game right now and is currently costing 2 players out of eight I'd like to get it clarified so we can see if this can be prevented in the future as a 39-shift hit absolutely destroys my ability to produce challenging opponents that won't kill the mostly-mortal characters by sneezing!

So here's the breakdown, as far as I recall;
Shift 6 spell declared, well within the range of his conviction (+4) + focus item(s) to control and cast.
The roll nets him +2 for a total of +8
So Far One point of mental stress.
He takes 3 more mental stress voluntarily then takes a Mild Consequence to pay off 2 of those, thus another +3
total is now +11
With 2 mental Stress.
Tagged at least 4 separate aspects; two or so on himself and two or so others from other are tags available. So that's +8 more
Total is now +19
Used 4 points of Sponsor Magic for another +8
Total is now 27
Dropped 4 fate Points for another +8
Total is now 35!
2 Wool-gathering Maneuvers for the additional +4
So the total ended up at 39.

Mind you this is all before Dodge, Armor (which was ignored due to the attack hitting its natural weakness).
Even with an optimal dodge roll it could only subtract 8 from the hit, with taking one of every consequence in the book would only get it reduced by an additional 20 hits...so that's 11 Physical Stress after all is said and done, on average probably 15 stress. Double that particular target could take...

Is this right? It sounds horribly wrong but I don't know where the failure occurs. Should he have been taking a lot more stress? Should there have been fallout or a much more difficult roll? I'd want to get this clarified for future reference and so I can figure out how it can be fixed. Yes it was a one-shot deal for that scenario but it could be replicated and I don't want to have to deal with that every session.
I understand there will be later consequences form his sponsor, but that is a matter for another time, not to mention other RP consequences.

...Wait, if it was declared at 6 Shifts of Power, that should be the end of it, shouldn't it?
The rules state it quite clearly, after all (Art of the Spell: How To Do It):
1: Determine Effect - Element, etc.
2: Describe spell type - Attack, Block, Maneuver or Counterspell.
3: Decide on number of shifts of power.
4: Make Discipline Roll. Invoke aspects/foci/whatever necessary to try to reach the Power level you decided on. After rolling, he may NOT add any additional shifts of power, RAW...

[bitterpill]

I think that all of the invokes were going into his to hit roll rather than power.

[bobjob]

Here's my 2 cents on it...

Shift 6 spell declared, well within the range of his conviction (+4) + focus item(s) to control and cast.
The roll nets him +2 for a total of +8
So Far One point of mental stress.

I'd really like to know what the character's Discipline and focus items are so I can dig down into the math. If the conviction is +4, I'm assuming at this point that his Discipline is also +4 with appropriate focuses to compensate for the 6 shift spell. So,  he is now at +8 to hit with a weapon 6.

He takes 3 more mental stress voluntarily then takes a Mild Consequence to pay off 2 of those, thus another +3
total is now +11
With 2 mental Stress

.

Ok, I know you can do this voluntarily in Thaumaturgy to help power spells, and I know you can do this to take Backlash to actually cast the spell assuming your Discipline roll does not equal the power you are pushing, but I am not 100% sure you can voluntarily take damage like that to cast higher powered Evocations. I'm going to have to read back over the rules on this.

Tagged at least 4 separate aspects; two or so on himself and two or so others from other are tags available. So that's +8 more. Total is now +19

Costing 4 Fate Points really make this powerful. You mentioned only two or so were his own. Were these other Aspects found out about the enemy via Assessment?

Used 4 points of Sponsor Magic for another +8. Total is now 27

What Aspects was he Invoking? So, for Fate Points you can use them a few different ways. Without an Aspect to invoke, it only counts as a +1. If you have an appropriate Aspect to invoke, then it's +2. So far from what you've said, he's either invoked all 8 of his Aspects or my Math is really off.

Dropped 4 fate Points for another +8. Total is now 35!

By my count he's out of Aspects to invoke and Aspects can only be invoked once per roll, so at most this would only be +4 (using the rules governing the use of Fate Points above).That is unless some of the Aspects he's already used are really Consequences the Monster already took or Aspects of the Monster that have been found out through Assessment.

2 Wool-gathering Maneuvers for the additional +4
So the total ended up at 39.

By my count it is as follows (I am not counting the taking voluntary damage to power up the evo, as I'm still not sure that's kosher.)

+32 to hit with a weapon 6. Depending on what the monster rolls to dodge, that only takes off 8 (assuming his Athletics is 4). So it's a +24 to hit with a weapon 6 if the monster rolls 4f to dodge, giving a potential for a 30 stress hit.

Now, the character has depleted a MASSIVE quantity of Fate Points in addition to incurring quite a bit of sponsor debt. As Warpmind stated though, according to the simplified description of the rules, you determine power and you roll to hit. Although with other skills, you could keep invoking Aspects to gain extra to hit if you *REAALLY* want to make it count.

Also, a lot of this assumes ALL of his Aspects can somehow be Invoked.

[Ren]

Found two problems after reading and some discussion;
1 - As I recall he was Tagging his own aspects using the "Free 1st Tag" that comes with; i.e, for no Fate points.
In other words He would have had to have spent 4 Fate points to Tag the Aspects he Tagged. This removes 8 from the result.
2 - YS288; bottom of the right hand column states: Once per roll, you may invoke an aspect without spending a fate point. So only one sponsor Help per roll and again that is only to tag an Aspect. So that's down another 6 from the result.
That's down to a 25-Stress Hit. Still Broken and problematical but not quite as bad as before.

[bitterpill]

On the positive side it is a trick you could only pull once or twice an entire campaign and it is no stronger than a pure mortal throwing a grenade and then stacking fate points and tags.

[Moriden]

Let me try to break this down. let me know if i have it right please.

So here's the breakdown, as far as I recall;
Shift 6 spell declared, well within the range of his conviction (+4) + focus item(s) to control and cast.
The roll nets him +2 for a total of +8

Power 6 Control 8  one mental stress

He takes 3 more mental stress voluntarily then takes a Mild Consequence to pay off 2 of those, thus another +3
total is now +11

power increased by three. one mild consequence taken. Power 9 Control 8  Two mental stress

Tagged at least 4 separate aspects; two or so on himself and two or so others from other are tags available. So that's +8 more
Total is now +19

Im assuming from your post above this is where he tried to tag four of his aspects for free, so im ignoring this step

Used 4 points of Sponsor Magic for another +8
Total is now 27

Accepted one point of sponsor magic to invoke his high concept. Power 9 Control 10  Two mental stress, one mild consequence.

Dropped 4 fate Points for another +8
Total is now 35!

Used four fate points to tag his own aspects or other available ones in the scene. Power 9 Control 18  Two mental stress, one mild consequence, 4 fate points

2 Wool-gathering Maneuvers for the additional +4
So the total ended up at 39.

Took the first free tag of off 4 aspects created in this scene. Power 9 Control 26  Two mental stress, one mild consequence, 4 fate points, Four tags previously set up by himself or other pcs.

[Ren]

That looks about right. So 9 power with 26 control...but if those add together for the final stress total that's right back to 34...

[bitterpill]

A house rule I would use if players were abusing something like this would be putting a total limit on all bonuses so that they could not surpass twice the skill.

[Moriden]

Okay cool, wanted to make sure i was dealing with the right numbers. so here is how i would suggest breaking it down to discourage abuse.

So here's the breakdown, as far as I recall;
Shift 6 spell declared, well within the range of his conviction (+4) + focus item(s) to control and cast.
The roll nets him +2 for a total of +8

Power 6 Control 8  one mental stress       All is well and good.

power increased by three. one mild consequence taken. Power 9 Control 8  Two mental stress

Make sure he is aware that this is an increase to power not control.

Accepted one point of sponsor magic to invoke his high concept. Power 9 Control 10  Two mental stress, one mild consequence.

Sticking to a one sponsor debt per spell will help keep the numbers down.

Used four fate points to tag his own aspects or other available ones in the scene. Power 9 Control 18  Two mental stress, one mild consequence, 4 fate points

Honestly if hes got 4 fate points to burn on this spell i don't see it as a problem, finding aspects to use shouldn't be all that hard. I am curious as to how a caster has that many laying around though, i know i never have more then one.

2 Wool-gathering Maneuvers for the additional +4
So the total ended up at 39.

Took the first free tag of off 2 aspects created in this scene. Power 9 Control 22  Two mental stress, one mild consequence, 4 fate points, two tags previously set up by himself or other pcs.

Little blip on my math, he tagged 2 aspects here not 4, fixed it in the above quote.

So what where looking it is a player who has saved up 4 fate points, either had the time to set up two tags or 2 other players are helping in this spell somehow, and taken a mild consequence.for a power 9 controll 22 attack

Assuming hes fighting a big bad level boss, we'll reduce hit by 8 [its assumed defense roll] bringing us to a power 9 control 14 attack. You mentioned that this attack bypassed the big bads toughness powers so hes only got a 4 box stress track. bringing it down to a four stress hit and 19 more stress to handle. an extreme +8, severe +6, moderate +4,  minor +2. brings it down to a 3 stress hit.

If its toughness had counted it wouldn't have taken several of those consequences, [as many as half]

Consequence of this attack are that the player is presumably out of fate points, and out a minor consequence slot. A very easy way to avoid this player one - three shotting your bosses is to give them goons, or even have a five bad band instead of just one major villain.

[Ren]

Thing is there were multiple baddies, 2 of what he was aiming at, 4 dominated security guards and the actual villainess.  The 2 actual monsters were far tougher than the villainess and something they had fought before...and fried those handily as well...
And actually its defense wasn't that good; Athletics at great (4+) and a roll of +2 so down 6.

[Moriden]

2 of what he was aiming at

If he was targeting two separate targets he has to split the base power and assign shifts of control to each. so wed be looking at a power 4/5 control 11/11 

Akso if theyve fough these things before do the bad guys know that this pcs can do this? haveing them set up aspects such as Waiting for the nuke, Prepare to dodge, ect would make perfect sense. Remeber that navel gazing maneuvers aren't just for good guys.

Id also suggest haveing every bad guy attack this player the second he does this, with full intent to kill.

[Ren]

He only targeted one. Though with those numbers he could have targeted the entire group of baddies and taken them out!

[Moriden]

He only targeted one. Though with those numbers he could have targeted the entire group of baddies and taken them out!

Sure and his party to. theres no method to target a zone that doesn't hit your allies as well.

Is the problem that the other players are feeling like they don't matter. That you cant seem to stat things that could survive that kind of punishment. that you can but your afraid the rest of the party would get killed, or something else? If we can identify what part of this situation is the problem maybe we can give some more constructive advice.

[bitterpill]

I have allways thought that if your targetting a zone you should be able to decide what zone that is so, for my area of effect nuker I allways tell my party to get behind me and nuke in front.

[Ren]

Oh all of the opponents started in a different zone so nuking them all without hurting the other PC's would have been a cinch.