Author Topic: Injun Joe's shape shifting abilities  (Read 5326 times)

Offline bobjob

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Injun Joe's shape shifting abilities
« on: February 08, 2011, 10:35:07 PM »
I just started running a campaign and am thinking of a shape shifting shaman like Injun Joe. The problem is, I've been having issues statting up his particular shape shifting abilities. I could do it like the other were-creatures in the YS core book, but I was hoping to find a way to do it with just a spell. In the books Injun Joe did it so fast in the fight with the Naaglioshii that to me it would be an evocation. I mean, that is essentially what the Alphas shape shifting is, a highly specialized evocation.

Has anybody tried to stat this out for your own campaigns/characters?
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Offline bibliophile20

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Re: Injun Joe's shape shifting abilities
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2011, 10:47:30 PM »
True Shapeshifting and Modular Abilities.  The True Shapeshifting accounts for the ability to change into a variety of forms, and the Modular Abilities backs up the, well, abilities of those forms.  Basically, Injun Joe is so good at shapechange that he has the skill to cast the spell down to the level of a power, much like the Alphas have the "spell" of wolf-form at the level of a power. 
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Injun Joe's shape shifting abilities
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2011, 10:47:38 PM »
Look here: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,16552.45.html

You can't really do it with a spell. It just isn't feasible with this system.

Offline devonapple

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Re: Injun Joe's shape shifting abilities
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2011, 10:51:11 PM »
I just started running a campaign and am thinking of a shape shifting shaman like Injun Joe. The problem is, I've been having issues statting up his particular shape shifting abilities. I could do it like the other were-creatures in the YS core book, but I was hoping to find a way to do it with just a spell. In the books Injun Joe did it so fast in the fight with the Naaglioshii that to me it would be an evocation. I mean, that is essentially what the Alphas shape shifting is, a highly specialized evocation.

Has anybody tried to stat this out for your own campaigns/characters?

I think the game rules recommend you pay Refresh for the shape shifting powers and call them a well-practiced spell - same with for any other "spell" which works better as a creature ability.

But for a PC without the Refresh to spend on that ability, you need to consult with your GM decide how hard it will be to Transform oneself. At the very least, the rules indicate you pay 1 Fate Point for each Refresh worth of power you will temporarily have.

General community feedback ranges between:

Extremely hard: enough Complexity to take yourself out entirely (anywhere from 25-30 or even more shifts), and for each Refresh worth of power you will temporarily have, you add +1 Complexity and pay 1 Fate Point, plus shifts for duration. That's stress track, all consequence slots, and overcoming an Endurance check. This is the same as transforming another creature.

Moderately difficult: anything in between - usually requires only taking out the caster's Physical stress track.

Ridiculously Easy: For each Refresh worth of power you will temporarily have, you add +1 Complexity and pay 1 Fate Point, plus shifts for duration.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 11:09:09 PM by devonapple »
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Offline Moriden

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Re: Injun Joe's shape shifting abilities
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2011, 10:55:17 PM »
Quote
Ridiculously Easy: For each Refresh worth of power you will temporarily have, you add +1 Complexity and pay 1 Fate Point, plus shifts for duration.

Dont forget you can use maneuvers instead of fate points if your not in a hurry!   O:}
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Offline devonapple

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Re: Injun Joe's shape shifting abilities
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2011, 11:01:47 PM »
Dont forget you can use maneuvers instead of fate points if your not in a hurry!   O:}

Even more easy: offer to get the GM a drink.
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That I’m positive are not even mine"

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Offline bobjob

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Re: Injun Joe's shape shifting abilities
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2011, 11:05:23 PM »
I'm the GM of this particular game and I buy myself drinks all the time :)

I was thinking of using this shape shifting shaman as a foil for the PCs, but just thought buying the powers seemed a little off considering what Injun Joe knew how to do via some spell. But it's entirely possible you're correct and it was all bought through the were-beast powers.
The entire Red Court was taken down by the new Winter Knight? From the lowliest pawn all the way up to the King? *puts on sunglasses* Knight to G7. Check mate.

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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Injun Joe's shape shifting abilities
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2011, 11:06:27 PM »
In the game world, it's a spell. But we don't live there, so we have to model it in other ways.

Offline Drachasor

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Re: Injun Joe's shape shifting abilities
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2011, 12:46:47 AM »
Remember that no ability in the game really has one flavor.  A Shapechanging ability could be a spell, something more natural (T1000), a learned supernatural ability that technically isn't a spell, etc.  It's not tied to one interpretation.  So for Listens-to-Winds it is a spellcasting ability (possibly even replacing some of his spellcasting while he is affected with modular abilities).  For Billy it is something more natural, though Harry likes to interpret it as a spell (Bob maybe as well, though he really only used "spell" as a reference point for Harry).

Offline jybil178

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Re: Injun Joe's shape shifting abilities
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2011, 04:15:16 AM »
In all honesty, while I haven't gotten quite to that part of the books, I've been kinda thinking about this a little bit too...  Unfortunately, the magic gone over in the book really doesn't sit very well with how to do this period, much less at the speed your talking about Injun Joe transforming...  I'd thought of a few ideas for a spell, or two that involve changing your form, but for the most part, they were only meant to be used as a form of quicker travel through more difficult terrains, not to be used in the sense your talking...

In all honesty, one of the bigger problems with trying to use a spell, is the fact that unless you build an additional "something" into the spell, in my mind, the transformation would be complete... IE Permanent.  Duration doesn't matter at that point, once you've completely changed the body.  In fact, what duration would do, would be how long the spell's energy could keep it going.  If some hack job sorcerer transforms someone into a newt, and places a duration of a day and a night, the poor guy isn't gonna turn back after 36 hours.  That'd be when the magic that is keeping his "not even a real newt body" alive, and without it, won't manage to stay alive for long...  So in order for your spell to turn you into something and back, you'd most likely have to work in your SELF into the spell, a grounding point that reaffirmed yourself and who and what YOU are.  Or maybe the spell, rather than changing your own body, simply creates a construct of the "form" you wish to take, hiding your own body somewhere, and pretty much placing your consciousness inside.  You'd again, have to place some measures that allow you to get back, otherwise the previous version would be just as lethal...

I'm not even going to get into how I would probably do the spell, because I've found myself to be VERY monstorous on the required complexity of such things...  >.<  I actually tried to write it out, and I think I came up to a 62 complexity spell for turning into the equivalent of a Werewolf from the Template section, hehe...

But back onto Injun Joe... Like has been said, although he uses "magic" for his form of shapeshifting, taking refresh for his shapeshifting abilities and calling it being done by magic would most likely be the easiest way to stat it out.  It would ALSO make good on the fact that hes simply ingrained it so deeply into his magical abilities, that he can cast such a complex spell at such a quickened rate.  In all honesty, when I imagine how Joe probably started off, I can easily see him first making a spell and playing and mastering it.  Over time, he began to get better and better at it, eventually getting to the point where he actually bought some Refresh stuffs.  Now, I also imagine he probably started out with a single form.  But as he grew older, and more powerful, he began working on others.  At this point, I figure he and his ST worked something out, and he got to trade in his original Shapeshifting powers, and take something like Modular Abilities.  From their, he could pretty much start taking any animal form he wanted.  He also probably learned an Improved form, allowing him to shift to his new form even faster.

Of course, this is all speculation, and could be very very far from what happened...  Its just what I saw, in my own imagined sequence of events.
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Offline Kommisar

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Re: Injun Joe's shape shifting abilities
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2011, 03:30:39 PM »
Another way is how I set up a character in my game that wanted the same thing.  I had him pick up Sponsored Magic with Coyote being his sponsor.  He already has Thaum and Evoc; so the sponsorship gives him the ability to Self-Transform at Evocation Speed and Methods.  Since it is a self transformation, he concedes and only needs to beat his 3 Physical Stress.  Adding in some extra shifts for complexity and he can pull off a shape change in one action.  Also, his sponsor provides access to Echos of the Beast and the animal "software" needed to run his new body.

It's not true shapeshifting, though.  He can only shift into natural animals and only ones that he as had personal contact with and he carries around fetishes from those animals that are needed components for the spell.  This part is largely fluff that we agreed on; but mitigates what, otherwise, would be a very expensive power from Sponsored Magic.

When he transforms, I have him trade in his Evocation and Thaum (6 Refresh) for powers from the Animal/Beast section of powers that make sense for the form.  Though, recently, we have been debating as to if a grizzly bear (or other large critter) would qualify as having Inhuman Strength or not.  Or if we should just model that with shifting some skills around to Might while in that form.

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Offline Wordmaker

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Re: Injun Joe's shape shifting abilities
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2011, 02:05:36 PM »
I'm with Kommisar on this. Listens-To-Wind's shapeshifting is incredibly unique among what we've seen, and he did it with flawless execution.

Offline luminos

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Re: Injun Joe's shape shifting abilities
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2011, 04:34:40 PM »
I'm the GM of this particular game and I buy myself drinks all the time :)

I was thinking of using this shape shifting shaman as a foil for the PCs, but just thought buying the powers seemed a little off considering what Injun Joe knew how to do via some spell. But it's entirely possible you're correct and it was all bought through the were-beast powers.

If he's an NPC, and more importantly, a bad guy NPC, then its not even a question of how to do it with spells.  Just give him the shapeshifting abilities and don't sweat the details.  The only question is how to represent the powers mechanically at that point, and the only logical answer is by using the pre-existing shapeshifting mechanics, even if they aren't the things PC wizards get access to.
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Offline Wordmaker

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Re: Injun Joe's shape shifting abilities
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2011, 07:54:37 PM »
Hell, if he's an NPC, just decide roughly the kinds of shapes he can take on, how his stats are affected, and don't sweat the mechanical details.

Offline admiralducksauce

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Re: Injun Joe's shape shifting abilities
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2011, 02:01:56 PM »
I wouldn't look at it so literally, actually.  You can probably simulate what Shagnasty and Joe were throwing at each other as a series of evocation blocks and attacks, simply described as changing into animal form for the duration of the attack or whatever.  Joe's "Spirit" element probably involves animalism, given his roots, just like it's been said Ancient Mai's elements are the Chinese ones rather than our Western set.

I think my interpretation is obviously looser and less precise, but it puts such a scene within reach of a wizardly PC without needing refresh levels in the teens or twenties.