100 shift potions

[CGregory]

What is important is that the players are allowed to do so in the first place.

Not really, what's important is that everyone enjoys themselves. 

Remember however, that the basic premises of the game is all power comes with a cost. That cost being refresh/free will.  That being said, all powers of equal refresh cost should be roughly equal in strength.  With that in mind it suggests that your interpretation of the rules for potions are off and that they are limited to lore x2 like other enchanted items.

[tymire]

This entire argument goes away when the GM runs the game with a couple basic principles:

1.  If the players can do it, everyone else can also.
2.  Actions have effects beyond the obvious, and those effects can come back at any time. 

As a player would I want 100 shift potions in the game?  Not a chance in hell.   

Say I decide to summon a pixie for and for some reason it becomes seriously insulted because of what type of shoes I am wearing (it's a flip flop day, not a boxer day) it decides to take revenge by spiking my drink (ofcourse having a completely strange sense of what is equal).  What would you prefer?  having a minor upset stomach and only seeing the color orange or spending the next year and a day as a fresh water trout?

[sjksprocket]

For me the only way I would be in favor of something like a 100 shift potion be if it was the campaign to make it. Once it was made though it would probably be new campaign time. If My players wanted to play such a high power level, and I wanted to run it, I would suggest starting out at a higher power level. My reasoning would be that such a huge jump of power, if gained with a single ritual, is such a quick jump of power that the players would probably have HUGE problems after wards. Such power usually isn't ignored. especially for other people who have such power. They would be afraid that you would tread on there territory. especially if poof there you are all of a sudden. "where did it come from, and why sudden;y in this area? this can't be good all for me. squash it before it can get me." This could be potential for another story arc, sure. But the problem is that it is such a big power jump so fast that the players wouldn't know how to control it, at least not well. If then they went against something that has earned such power over time, legitimately, the players wouldn't stand a chance IMO. Not to mention all of the little guys banding together to take down such a big power due to the potential of the big power smooshing the little guys under foot with it's new found power.

[Drachasor]

I know I kinda rezzed a somewhat dead thread...maybe I should have started a new discussion.

It all depends on whether you consider a potion to be subset of "enchanted item" or a similar but differentiable item.

Given that Potions have its own section that's on equal footing to enchanted items, it seems like they follow different rules.  That's why they in fact repeat a lot of the enchanted item rules for potions, because they need to be repeated.

YS 278:
"There are two basic kinds of magical items: focus items and enchanted items... enchanted items store energy and release it again in some predetermined manner, sort of like a “spell in a box.”...

Potions and their ilk are a kind of fire-and-forget enchanted item. They store energy, but once consumed, the energy is used up and the item is effectively destroyed."

If we then factor in YS 280 (as has been quoted earlier but is requoted here for convenience):
"Regardless, an item’s casting strength after all bonuses are totaled should never exceed two times the crafter’s Lore rating—at least not without a very good rationale and a ton of baggage."

I don't find this completely convincing regarding potions, since they have their own list of rules on how they work, repeating much of the rules for enchanted items.  It just doesn't seem like they have the same limit as an enchanted item regarding power.

And also YS 280:
"Unlike a normal enchanted item, the effect strength of the potion may be boosted on the fly or at the time it is created with the invocation of aspects."

The bit in bold seems more clearly to express *when* that boost can come into play (giving you the narrative freedom to increase its effectiveness in response to the plot, rather than having to bean-count and plan ahead). I feel it to be a stretch to use it to justify the unlimited addition of Aspects, and so "good rationale and a ton of baggage" would still apply.

Edit: And as a bonus, "You may choose to take a compel in order to get this bonus for free, but that means the GM can introduce that compel at any time later without giving you the opportunity to refuse—you’ve already agreed to it by taking the additional strength for the potion. In general, only one such “pay-it-forward” compel should be allowed at a time."

The game offers explicit permission to go into Fate Point Debt to boost a potion, but advocates limiting it to once per potion. Although one could potentially argue that the rules are allowing multiple "pay-it-forward" but limiting GM compels, it is a weak argument: if this was the intent, then the rules would have been phrased more clearly to reflect the GM/player relationship - as it stands, I contend that the "pay-it-forward" limit applies to the potion-making/modifying.

While I agree arbitrarily powerful effects need careful watch, I think that's true of any thaumaturgy, not just potions.  It does seem like you can invoke as many aspects as you wish with potions.  I mean heck, you don't even need a fate point if you do a maneuver with a potion.  Having a 50 or 100 shift effect in general is a bad idea without a really good justification.  That said, if someone is making a 12 shift or something potion for a special purpose (and it would have to be special if they are tossing that many fate points or story-based maneuvers at it), then that doesn't seem like a broken thing.

[devonapple]

Given that Potions have its own section that's on equal footing to enchanted items, it seems like they follow different rules.  That's why they in fact repeat a lot of the enchanted item rules for potions, because they need to be repeated.

As uncovered in the debate about whether you can Invoke for Effect as a free tag, one cannot assume that.

What we found out was that when there are broad rules about something, but they aren't all repeated in a subsection of the rules, it is not an indicator that the broader rules did not apply.

[Drachasor]

As uncovered in the debate about whether you can Invoke for Effect as a free tag, one cannot assume that.

What we found out was that when there are broad rules about something, but they aren't all repeated in a subsection of the rules, it is not an indicator that the broader rules did not apply.

Hmm, I thought the lesson we learned there is that the rules sometimes aren't exactly what is in the book.

Is it your position then that you can reduce the power of a potion by 1 and have two uses of it?  It seems like one must pick parts of the Enchanted Item rules one likes to apply to potions in a rather arbitrary way here.

[devonapple]

That wasn't really my point. I was arguing that Potions were generally governed by the same Lore limits as other enchanted items.

[Drachasor]

That wasn't really my point. I was arguing that Potions were generally governed by the same Lore limits as other enchanted items.

And my point is that limit appears in the "Enchanted Item" subsection (a section on the same weight as potions, for what it is worth).  That section says you can reduce the power of an enchanted item by 1 to increase the number of uses by 1.  Seems if you are going to say the one applies to potions then you have to say the other does as well.

[devonapple]

And my point is that limit appears in the "Enchanted Item" subsection (a section on the same weight as potions, for what it is worth).  That section says you can reduce the power of an enchanted item by 1 to increase the number of uses by 1.  Seems if you are going to say the one applies to potions then you have to say the other does as well.

This is the risk when resurrecting old threads - I'm not exactly sure that we are actually in conflict about anything in particular.

[Drachasor]

This is the risk when resurrecting old threads - I'm not exactly sure that we are actually in conflict about anything in particular.

Just seems like mixing and matching rules a bit to me.  Maybe the lore limit was intended to apply to potions, but I don't think that's particular clear.  Nor do I think it is particularly problematic to not go with that rule (no more problematic than thaumaturgy is in general, anyhow).

Edit:  hmm, perhaps I should just make a new thread discussing potions or the like.

[Warpmind]

And my point is that limit appears in the "Enchanted Item" subsection (a section on the same weight as potions, for what it is worth).  That section says you can reduce the power of an enchanted item by 1 to increase the number of uses by 1.  Seems if you are going to say the one applies to potions then you have to say the other does as well.

Didn't Harry do exactly that with the teleportation brew in the, um, love potion incident?

[Drachasor]

Didn't Harry do exactly that with the teleportation brew in the, um, love potion incident?

That was closer to an spray attack via drinking (e.g. shifts split between both drinkers).

[zenten]

Where are you getting 100 NPCs that all have the Fate to spend on invoking relevant aspects for your ritual?

[Kommisar]

Literal and legal hashing of the rules aside (I get enough of that at work writing special notes and provisions in construction contracts and plans) I think one can easily choose to go the route of common sense here and make two observations that work well:

1)  The x2 Lore restriction just makes sense for potions AND enchanted items.  At least to me.  If it does for any of your reading this as well: USE IT.  Problem solved, game works well with it (I use it in my game) and it makes good sense.

2)  The alternative is to use my ever useful rule-of-consequences for dealing with players creating massively powerful things.  Be it rituals, potions, or magic decoder rings of DOOM, when one pumps a lot of magical-mojo-go-juice into anything they are quickly raising their own profile on the cosmic mystical radar screen.  The bigger that profile becomes, the bigger and nastier are the things that will sit up and take notice.  This is true and constant throughout the Dresden novels even.  Any time someone starts working up a large, nasty, powerful ritual of some sort (Nicodemus and his Shroud of Turin Ritual of the Apocalypse, the Exploding Heart Kung-Fu Ritual, Kemmler's Deathly Hallow Rule the World as a Necro-God Ritual, ect... ) things quickly get complicated for them as more and more power players take notice and become involved.  Fae stick their fingers into it.  Swords of the Cross stumble into it.  Wardens start poking around.  Harry and crew get drawn in.  Denerians start running around.  The Archive knows what you are doing since you have probably written something down.  Oh, and do you think Odin gave up that eye just to completely miss some mortal wizard casually throwing around 100 plus shifts of magic in his mom's basement?  Or that the Gatekeeper isn't going to get all curious; especially as, I am sure, no end of Outsider related nasty is going to notice at some point and try to take advantage.

If it was easy and simple to just sit back in quite, pump up something HUGE like a ritual or magical item with 100 plus shifts and then keep it handy "Just in Case"; you would imagine that everyone and their mothers in the supernatural world would be packing around these massive, military-grade magical bombs.  But, they're not.  OH, they may have something tucked away in their home turf.  Hidden behind some magical wards and such.  All hush-hush.  Which is why in the supernatural big-league (MLSN?) home turf is so valuable.  But, even the Merlin is not walking around with a belt full of 100-shift potions; and if anyone could, it would be someone like him.

And the reason is that the complications created by lugging around a giant beacon of magical power and the resulting effort needed to defend said beacon of interest is just not worth it.

So, if alternatively, if you don't like the x2 Lore ruling on potions (or have players that really want to go to town as a crafter or ritualist as well), then let them have their way.  Then, hit them with the consequences of having it and eventually they will understand that having said massively powerful thing quickly consumes their whole characters life.


I know, not a logical win using literal interpretations from the rules; but it works.