Looking for advice on how to Self-Compel aspects

[ironpoet]

Use the Aspect to directly maneuver the story, that's what Declarations are for.

New Warden In Town - Spend a Fate point and make up a long standing rivalry between two people that you accidentally bring up, or invent an old sore spot in a major character that you poke because you don't know better.

Somebody Has To Do It - Spend a Fate point and say that everyone else who could have done it is busy or out of town.

That's the great thing about the FATE system, the players are GM's too!

I'm not looking for more ways to spend Fate points.  I'm looking for ways to gain them!

No, seriously, though, that's definitely good advice.  My plan has been to introduce/compel old rivalries or related backstories via the Been Around A Long Time aspect when we start meeting the bigger Faces in town.  But, outside of "first meetings" with a new character, I'm not sure how else I could use that trick.

[ironpoet]

I wanted to say Thanks, by the way, for everyone's advice.  I feel like I may be coming across a bit negative towards people's ideas, when really I'm (a) just trying to formalize my own question, and (b) trying to play Devil's Advocate a bit.  But you're already given me some great ideas, and I think it's an interesting discussion.

[Ophidimancer]

I'm not looking for more ways to spend Fate points.  I'm looking for ways to gain them!

Oh ... wait, yeah.  Considering you're making your character's life harder I think maybe it might be justified to ask for Fate points.

[ironpoet]

Just to go through my own list of Aspects, and my ideas about each one:

New Warden In Town
We actually haven't met too many local magic-users yet, so I think this will get easier to compel in later stories.  The game is set in Boston, where new faces are generally unwelcome.  So a new face who is also a Warden should be particularly distrusted.  The difficulty so far has been that we've mainly met mundane bystanders or people who are already suspicious of us, so it hasn't really come into play that much.

Somebody Has To Do It
I've self-compelled this a few times.  I like it as a Trouble-Aspect, but I don't think it would come up too often.  In an investigation-style game, you learn about a problem, self-compel ("Well, somebody's got to take care of this!"), and then that Aspect is pretty much done as far as compels go.  That's not necessarily a bad thing, since it's done it's job of getting me into Trouble.  (But's it's not earning me piles of Fate points either!)

I had thought this Aspect might work by having my character over-commit to lots of different jobs.  ("I'm dealing with another big problem right now, but somebody's got to help you!")  But we've pretty much been tackling cases individually, so that hasn't come up.

Knowledge Is Power
This is your basic "Indiana Jones" Aspect.  Sacrifice the Ark of the Covenant to save the Girl?  Hmm...  Tough decision...  This could come up more later, but so far we haven't encountered any fonts of knowledge or interesting relics that I'd need to defend.  It could be that the GM just needs to leave more ancient texts lying around, but I'd be interested in ideas for how to fit "Find and protect knowledge" motivations into a "Solve This Crime" storyline.

Been Around A Long Time
I've talked about this a bit already.  The character is a two-hundred-year-old White Council veteran.  He's been around a long time, so he's got plenty of backstory.  The plan is to start compelling complications as we meet new people ("Oh, by the way, the local head of the White Court?  We used to be engaged...  Fate Point Oh, and I killed her brother... Another Fate Point")  I think I could get some good mileage out of this one, but since we've only met "small fish" so far, I haven't been able to think of a good compel for it yet.  Plus, I don't want to overdo it.  ("This nurse was just attacked by a ghoul!"  "I... uh... knew her father?"  "Dude, you can't be connected to every random person you meet."

Stubborn Old Mule
This aspect and the next one are the ones giving me the most trouble.  We've been running investigation-style stories so far, by which I mean they follow the pattern: "Learn about a problem" --> "Investigate the source of the problem" --> "Deal with the problem".  Since the plotline is fairly linear, I can't think of any way that being old or stubborn could make things more interesting.  It seems more likely that they would get in the way.  Until someone tries to stop me from doing something or pursuing someone, the Aspect will just be sitting there, gathering dust.

Needs Of The Many Outweigh The Few
So far the needs of the many and the needs of the few have been pretty compatible.  Random guy is killing people with magic?  He should probably be stopped.  I think both individuals and the overall majority would agree with that.  I think the problem may be that these two aspects, while interesting, seem particularly dependent on what the GM throws at me.  Is there a way to design Aspects that are more story-independent?  Should you design Aspects to be story-dependent, or is it the GM's responsibility to bend their storyline to hit your Aspects?

(plus one more I plan to replace anyway)
I think I'll take Sanctaphrax's advice about "unwise combat decision" Aspects.  I'm leaning towards "Always Give Them A Chance", which would compel me to waste a turn at the start of every combat to ask for a truce/surrender/etc.  Plus he would generally be against ambushes (unless he'd already offered the enemy a chance).  What do you think?

[Sanctaphrax]

Always Give Them A Chance sounds good to me.

[sinker]

Somebody Has To Do It
I've self-compelled this a few times.  I like it as a Trouble-Aspect, but I don't think it would come up too often.  In an investigation-style game, you learn about a problem, self-compel ("Well, somebody's got to take care of this!"), and then that Aspect is pretty much done as far as compels go.  That's not necessarily a bad thing, since it's done it's job of getting me into Trouble.  (But's it's not earning me piles of Fate points either!)

I had thought this Aspect might work by having my character over-commit to lots of different jobs.  ("I'm dealing with another big problem right now, but somebody's got to help you!")  But we've pretty much been tackling cases individually, so that hasn't come up.

Something I just realized is that you could probably invent your own projects. That down-on-his-luck NPC you just talked to? New project. That single mother of three? New project.
For that matter you could actually invent your own projects. Tell the GM what you're thinking and see if you can get them on it too. That way there could be any number of compels resulting at any time.

I think the problem may be that these two aspects, while interesting, seem particularly dependent on what the GM throws at me.  Is there a way to design Aspects that are more story-independent?  Should you design Aspects to be story-dependent, or is it the GM's responsibility to bend their storyline to hit your Aspects?

This is something that came up when I first started GMing DFRPG. When you're used to creating campaigns the normal way DFRPG is very hard to adjust to. You might want to take your GM aside sometime (Ha! Take role reversal!) and see how well they're dealing with the story creating mechanics. See if you can help them in any way of if the party at large can. When I first started I had two issues. One that I wasn't familiar with how to tailor a story so much to the characters, and two my whole party lacked story aspects (there were maybe three or four total story aspects in a party of six-eight people), but I didn't necessarily want to share with the group that I was struggling.

[bitterpill]

For unwise combat decisions I think the ultimate Aspects got to be 'Will never sacrifice Anything, ever!' You have to play for a complete victory and the moment there is a death the GM can compel relentless self-destructive behaviour.  

[noclue]

New Warden In Town

The GM should be compelling the fact that you're new, so you're not trusted and don't have a network of contacts you can trust. You're also a warden, so you should be getting hit with compels to get involved in things that pull you from the investigation and bring danger and excitement into your life.

Somebody Has To Do It
I've self-compelled this a few times.  I like it as a Trouble-Aspect, but I don't think it would come up too often.  In an investigation-style game, you learn about a problem, self-compel ("Well, somebody's got to take care of this!"), and then that Aspect is pretty much done as far as compels go.

This should be getting you into lots of trouble along with your Stubborn Old Mule trait. But, the GM needs to throw out some trouble for the getting into. If it's just investigation, without jeopardy...oh well. Notice that the Dresden books have quite a bit of jeopardy mixed into the investigating.

Knowledge Is Power
This is your basic "Indiana Jones" Aspect.  Sacrifice the Ark of the Covenant to save the Girl?  Hmm...  Tough decision...  This could come up more later, but so far we haven't encountered any fonts of knowledge or interesting relics that I'd need to defend.  It could be that the GM just needs to leave more ancient texts lying around, but I'd be interested in ideas for how to fit "Find and protect knowledge" motivations into a "Solve This Crime" storyline.

The GM needs to give you a puzzle you desperately need to solve and then dangle dangerous or forbidden knowledge in front of you that could solve it.

Been Around A Long Time
I've talked about this a bit already.  The character is a two-hundred-year-old White Council veteran.  He's been around a long time, so he's got plenty of backstory.  

The bad guys should also know who he is and know that he's in town. They should be making your life difficult with, I don't know, contract killers, magical attacks, etc.

Stubborn Old Mule
This aspect and the next one are the ones giving me the most trouble.  We've been running investigation-style stories so far, by which I mean they follow the pattern: "Learn about a problem" --> "Investigate the source of the problem" --> "Deal with the problem".  Since the plotline is fairly linear, I can't think of any way that being old or stubborn could make things more interesting.

A GM should be looking for ways to get you into trouble because you're too stubborn to back off. If you attempt to play it safe, they should Compel your Stubborn Old Mule trait to get you moving into danger. You can self compel this, but only if the GM is putting up situations that make stubbornness a hindrance. Harry is stubborn when on a case, and it gets him into no end of hot water.

Needs Of The Many Outweigh The Few
... or is it the GM's responsibility to bend their storyline to hit your Aspects?

Bingo! We have a winner!

[ironpoet]

or is it the GM's responsibility to bend their storyline to hit your Aspects?

Bingo! We have a winner!

I think there's some truth to that, but I don't know that it's 100% true.  Sure, I could easily just say "It's the GM's job to bend the story to my character" and put all the responsibility on him.  But then, if nothing changes, neither one of us will be happy.

The player uses Aspects to tell the GM what type of game they want to play.  The books talk a lot about how the GM can use those Aspects to make a better game for the players.

The GM, conversely, introduces characters and situations to tell the players what type of game they want to run.  What can the player do with that information to make a better game experience (for both player and GM)?

[sinker]

The player uses Aspects to tell the GM what type of game they want to play.  The books talk a lot about how the GM can use those Aspects to make a better game for the players.

The GM, conversely, introduces characters and situations to tell the players what type of game they want to run.  What can the player do with that information to make a better game experience (for both player and GM)?

This is really an awesome tool that evil hat has created for player-GM communication, but you really shouldn't rely on it to the exclusion of simple speech. If you are having issues then the GM is also having issues and I'm sure s/he really wants this to be better. Talk to them.

[ironpoet]

This is really an awesome tool that evil hat has created for player-GM communication, but you really shouldn't rely on it to the exclusion of simple speech. If you are having issues then the GM is also having issues and I'm sure s/he really wants this to be better. Talk to them.

Once again, this isn't an issue of communication, nor am I trying to change the GM's methods.  As I said earlier, he's working on learning the system and how to better use Aspects.  I think the line of communication from player to GM is working reasonably well.  And I think the game gives the GM lots of tools for how to modify the story to fit the player's characters.

However, the question I'm interested in is the opposite.  I feel like the GM is communicating something to the players, via his GM-ing, about the game he wants to run.  But I'm not sure how to use the player's tools to better suit the game.

This is basically an "Ask Not What Your GM Can Do For You, But What You Can Do For Your GM" kind of situation.

To be clear, there's nothing wrong with the game I'm playing now.  It's fun.  It's new.  We're all learning the system as we play and having a good time.  I'm just looking for ways to tune the engine so that it runs even better.

One issue right now is that Aspects aren't getting compelled enough

• The GM can help with this problem by tweaking the story to better suit the players
• What can the players do?

Surely the players are not powerless to improve the game, right?  Our fun shouldn't rely solely on the GM's abilities.

I've already learned and implemented one valuable strategy from this post:
If combat occurs regularly, pick an Aspect that will complicate combat

And I suppose that advice could be generalized further:
If a type of event occurs regularly in your game, pick an Aspect that will complicate that type of event

With the unspoken corrolary:
The Aspect should complicate the event, but not break it or halt it

Are there any other pieces of Advice for tweaking Aspects (or Stunts/Powers/Skills/Playstyle) to improve the game you're playing in?

[newtinmpls]

"Plus, I don't want to overdo it.  ("This nurse was just attacked by a ghoul!"  "I... uh... knew her father?"  "Dude, you can't be connected to every random person you meet."

Actually, I kind of like that idea. Speaking from a GM point of veiw, your character's age must mean that collateral descendents, children and great-grands and such of people that you have met - not that you know "that person" but that you knew their financee's family, or their great-grandfather, or that they "look exactly like a girlfriend I had 90 years ago"; there could be some really cool stuff here.

And as for self-compels, add into the above, the idea that you may have (as an overprotective overzealous warden) have made flippant-at-the-time promises to "look after their kids" or some such.

Dian

[sinker]

This is basically an "Ask Not What Your GM Can Do For You, But What You Can Do For Your GM" kind of situation.

I guess what I was trying to say is "Ask Your GM What You Can Do For Your GM", but that isn't really helpful to the topic so I'll stop.

One of the things about DFRPG is that the players stories are just as valid as the GM's. You can create those complications on your own, without relying on the GM (Although getting a nod from him/her initially isn't a bad idea). You can invent people and places wholesale if the GM is willing. You can be a GM as well as a player if you want, and that might help with compels.

[newtinmpls]

Taking a shot at these aspects:
So the idea is to find ways to self-compel and gain FATE points...

New Warden In Town
Look in a newspaper (or better yet the Sun or the Enquirer) for ideas, see if any of them could be in your character's paper/town, and since you are there, insist that you check them out. Or look at a local crime map and feel responsible for mysterious crime/possibly magical or esoteric crap.

Somebody Has To Do It
Kind of overlaps with the above. Which may mean that you could afford to swap this one out for something else.

Knowledge Is Power
Could mean that your character insists on actually going to council meetings, taking on grunt jobs for the data you'd pick up. Or do you have a divination specialty?

Been Around A Long Time
This is the one you probably use for "I knew her grandfather"? How about knowing "a cemetary used to be there" (explains why the local WalMart is a mystical hotspot) same with Native (insert appropriate tribe) sacred spots, former churches and so on. Hmm...how can you compel that? Do you feel responsible, or potentially responsible if there is a "john doe" body found?
On the other hand, just how long? Do you derail things by insisting that this or that social ritual "must" be done? Do you get upset when seeing too much thigh (or whatever) on a "respectable" lady? Could possibly be bent to be overly chivalrous.

Stubborn Old Mule
"Back in my day", you might play this up by being enthusiastic about hexing "newfangled crap" to your PC's detrtiment.

Needs Of The Many Outweigh The Few
Well, any time you have to behead someone, this is being manifest. I'm guessing you will never get entangled in a Doom of Damocles situation.... hard to think about this one, because frankly I dislike it.

Hmmm... maybe I"m tired, I'm not really thrilled with any of these tonight.

Dian

[ironpoet]

I guess what I was trying to say is "Ask Your GM What You Can Do For Your GM", but that isn't really helpful to the topic so I'll stop.

Heh.  Let me turn the question back around to you.  If you were the GM, what would you want from your players?

As an extreme example, let's say you wanted to run Dresden Files so that you could build a city full of intrigue, social interaction, and high moral stakes.  Then your players all built a bunch of combat monsters with Aspects like "Shoot First, Ask Questions Never".  You would want to sit down and talk to your players, right?  What would you ask them?

One of the things about DFRPG is that the players stories are just as valid as the GM's. You can create those complications on your own, without relying on the GM (Although getting a nod from him/her initially isn't a bad idea). You can invent people and places wholesale if the GM is willing. You can be a GM as well as a player if you want, and that might help with compels.

That can be true, but it isn't necessary true.  As you say, the GM has to be willing.  In my case, the GM isn't quite comfortable yet with that level of story improvisation.  He plans a ton of stuff in advance, so if tried to introduce too many sub and/or side plots it would just end up hijacking whatever story he wanted to tell in the first place.

So...

• You're the GM.
• You have a cool, investigation-style story to tell - picture CSI, NCIS, the first half of every Law and Order, etc.
• You want to get all the characters involved, but since the plot lines all revolve around crime and investigation, it's the local cop character that ends up driving most of the story (and getting most of the compels).
• You could change your plot or your storytelling style, but you were really interested in telling that story.

If you could ask your players to change something (characters, playstyle, etc.) what would you ask them?  Can that advice be made generic for all players and GM's?