Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress

[jybil178]

For my character it's because he's an emissary of power.  

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Harry got all kinds of physical abilities after becoming the winter knight.

Right now my character is fairly low refresh so his only physical ability is tied up in his sponsored magic and his IOP.  I plan in the future to give any additional powers directly to him.  The rational is that channeling all of that power and being around the things he is constantly around has been changing him, making him more supernatural.

For another character, a few ideas on how to get physical abilities:

* A ritual went right
* A ritual went wrong
* The character is actually a changeling
* The character is bitten or scratched by something that infects him
* The character gets a favor from a powerful entity (not all favors have to be sponsored magic)
* The character can have an IOP that gives them abilities
* A certain food, fruit, or serum can give them a power - and a dependency.  This could be an awesome way to get compels and to get a power at a lower cost (due to the dependency).
* The PC (if a wizard) could have made an enchanted item to give a supernatural strength or something.  I'm assuming most GMs would allow this if the PC also took the refresh hit that the power would normally require.

etc.

I hope that helps.

It should be a rule to put the book your spoiler is from in front of the blackened text... >.<

[jybil178]

As I see it, Wardens have swords for that very reason. Using magic all the time simply isn't feasible.

Some people will let you take a stunt that adds a mental stress box. Whether this is balanced is an open question.

It's probably sensible to say that self-inflicted harm from spellcasting automatically satisfies catches. Which makes wizards with Recovery a lot more reasonable.

There really isn't any precedent for a stunt to increase someones stress, and it strains the confines of what a stunt normally does...  The biggest problem is the extra stress is variable... It could end up being the third, fourth, or fifth stress box, which would make it stronger and stronger, something that no stunt to the best of my knowledge really does.  The best you could do is convert the No Pain, No Gain stunt into a similar one for a Mild Mental Consequence, with the current set of rules...  Hendricks has a kinda similar stunt on his character sheet, called I Have a Job to Do, or something like that, that lets his mental stress be determined by his Discipline, rather than Conviction.  Kinda sets a little bit of a base, that the books just don't add copy's of stunts, due to word count and such.

Btw, that stunt, as well as Person of Conviction bot allow you to use one skill instead of another to determine your stress capacity.  If you get that skill to 5, would you also get the Mild Consequence as well, or would that only be granted through the original skill?

[rickayelm]

I always thought that battle mages relied on enchanted objects for extra spells. Which is why Harry made all those extra force rings after he beacame a warden, he had three on each finger so that is a total of 24 extra atack spells with zero stress. I am sure that most of the wardens have their favorite battle spells enchanted into magical objects to give them more combat power.

[BumblingBear]

I always thought that battle mages relied on enchanted objects for extra spells. Which is why Harry made all those extra force rings after he beacame a warden, he had three on each finger so that is a total of 24 extra atack spells with zero stress. I am sure that most of the wardens have their favorite battle spells enchanted into magical objects to give them more combat power.

Harry is not and has not ever been much of a combat wizard.

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It's only because he keeps accruing buttloads of power that he is able to survive and do what he does.

From the very beginning he has said his talents are mostly in thaumaturgy.

[bitterpill]

Im pretty certain your worng about Harry his stick was more power than subtly

[BumblingBear]

Im pretty certain your worng about Harry his stick was more power than subtly

For evocation, yes.

However, that is ass backwards for a good evocator.

Harry has said multiple times in the books that he sucks at evocation and is good at thaumatergy.

Harry was always in awe of good evocators.

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He's learned a few tricks since watching good evocators like Anastasia do her thing, but if he could control all the power he has with the refinement of a true evocator, he'd be hell on wheels - more than he already is.

[MrobFire]

So do people think a stunt that allowed you to cast rote spells with no mental stress provided that the discipline "roll" is at least double the conviction would be a balanced stunt?

[Wolfwood2]

There really isn't any precedent for a stunt to increase someones stress, and it strains the confines of what a stunt normally does... 

There's plenty of precendent in other FATE-system games, actually.  Increasing your stress tracks with stunts is common.  The trick is that a delberate decision was made not to do that for DFRPG, because they wanted grittier fights.  Instead of increased stress, you get extra mild consequences to use.

[infusco]

Actually, speaking of the stimulant potion, can someone help me understand exactly how it's crafted and why something like that is allowed? It's indeed a very nice potion, but what stops someone from creating an enchanted item that does exactly the same thing but is reusable?

As for allowing supernatural powers as a mortal caster, that's entirely up to GM discretion. YS54 gives an example of creating a werewolf who can do earth evocations. Basically, each of those powers can be mixed and mashed. As long your GM approves it, you're fine. Personally, as a GM, I wouldn't simply because I hate twinks with an overwhelming fury, and I like having a balanced set of characters that have different strengths and weaknesses. The idea of having a focused fire channeler with inhuman strength, speed, and toughness gives me rash

[BumblingBear]

Actually, speaking of the stimulant potion, can someone help me understand exactly how it's crafted and why something like that is allowed? It's indeed a very nice potion, but what stops someone from creating an enchanted item that does exactly the same thing but is reusable?

As for allowing supernatural powers as a mortal caster, that's entirely up to GM discretion. YS54 gives an example of creating a werewolf who can do earth evocations. Basically, each of those powers can be mixed and mashed. As long your GM approves it, you're fine. Personally, as a GM, I wouldn't simply because I hate twinks with an overwhelming fury, and I like having a balanced set of characters that have different strengths and weaknesses. The idea of having a focused fire channeler with inhuman strength, speed, and toughness gives me rash

You would really hate my character, then.

Plus, in the books there ARE a lot of mixed and mashed powers.  Like pretty much all the emissaries of power.

I dunno - I think people should be able to play what they want to play.  When I first got interested in RPGs, I walked away from my first game I was slated to play because the GM in question was lazy, didn't want to change his story for anyone, and pretty much demanded I be an elf warrior.

I personally loathe GMs who make the game about them and not the players.  As a player if I have too many rules laid on me before I'm even able to start playing, that pretty much tells me how the game would be too.

[infusco]

I personally loathe GMs who make the game about them and not the players.  As a player if I have too many rules laid on me before I'm even able to start playing, that pretty much tells me how the game would be too.

*Grin* You're assuming much. I see it simply from a balance perspective. Even in the novels, all the major protagonists fit into the templates and only the BBEGs end up being huge twinks a la Mavra. I personally feel that the powers are fairly balanced, but can become substantially imbalanced when mix and mashed with min-maxing in mind. Having one character who is super strong, super fast, super enduring AND can throw roaring fireballs of death just makes it less fun for other players who might feel more limited (especially if they're playing a Pure Mortal) and forces me the GM to adjust the challenge of the encounter accordingly. In the end, one character tends to shine, the other characters are forced to play very defensively to deal with the much increased lethality of their opposition, and the non-twink players just end up feeling left out and jaded.

By keeping to the templates and their logical advancements, every player gets a chance to shine in different encounters. Wizards are best when involved in short chaotic battles and with Thaumaturgical effects, White Court Vampires and Were-Creatures are ideal for those long multi-exchange rooftop chases, Pure Mortals tend to be best out of combat and in social challenges or anything involving technology after the 60s (not to mention being the party's wildcard with his huge pool of Fate points), etc ...

It has nothing to do with the wants and desires of the GM unless you're referring to a desire to keep things fun for everyone equally.

[BumblingBear]

*Grin* You're assuming much. I see it simply from a balance perspective. Even in the novels, all the major protagonists fit into the templates and only the BBEGs end up being huge twinks a la Mavra. I personally feel that the powers are fairly balanced, but can become substantially imbalanced when mix and mashed with min-maxing in mind. Having one character who is super strong, super fast, super enduring AND can throw roaring fireballs of death just makes it less fun for other players who might feel more limited (especially if they're playing a Pure Mortal) and forces me the GM to adjust the challenge of the encounter accordingly. In the end, one character tends to shine, the other characters are forced to play very defensively to deal with the much increased lethality of their opposition, and the non-twink players just end up feeling left out and jaded.

By keeping to the templates and their logical advancements, every player gets a chance to shine in different encounters. Wizards are best when involved in short chaotic battles and with Thaumaturgical effects, White Court Vampires and Were-Creatures are ideal for those long multi-exchange rooftop chases, Pure Mortals tend to be best out of combat and in social challenges or anything involving technology after the 60s (not to mention being the party's wildcard with his huge pool of Fate points), etc ...

It has nothing to do with the wants and desires of the GM unless you're referring to a desire to keep things fun for everyone equally.

This is a logical rebuttal.

What about when it's thematically appropriate to mix and mash, though?  Emissaries of power or scions are the first two kind of character that come to mind...

[Moriden]

@ infusco  Personally i couldn't care less about weather the characters are balanced, if we want the game to be true to the novels in fact they shouldn't be, harry tends to do all the heavy lifting and theres a reason for that. certainly if you have players who feel left out or aren't having fun then theres a problem.

However whenever possible i prefer to pick players who are playing a game because they want to take part in the same kind of story as portrayed by the setting we are in, so yes some of them should expect and in fact enjoy that they aren't as scary in combat as other characters.

[Drachasor]

*Grin* You're assuming much. I see it simply from a balance perspective. Even in the novels, all the major protagonists fit into the templates and only the BBEGs end up being huge twinks a la Mavra. I personally feel that the powers are fairly balanced, but can become substantially imbalanced when mix and mashed with min-maxing in mind. Having one character who is super strong, super fast, super enduring AND can throw roaring fireballs of death just makes it less fun for other players who might feel more limited (especially if they're playing a Pure Mortal) and forces me the GM to adjust the challenge of the encounter accordingly. In the end, one character tends to shine, the other characters are forced to play very defensively to deal with the much increased lethality of their opposition, and the non-twink players just end up feeling left out and jaded.

That's not necessary at all.  If anything, DFRPG handles an imbalance like that really well.  If the GM is just making enemies all stronger to deal with one strong guy, then he's screwing up.  What he should do is just add a few extra enemies, and stack up a few maneuvers on the strong guy or in the scene and have a normal-sized bad guy tag them all in an attack.

It's kind of like Superman on the Justice League.  Everyone is really strong, but Superman, being the strongest, just takes the brunt of the attacks (heck, he does it on purpose since he knows he can take it).  Because of how maneuvers work, the FATE system seems very well-suited for this sort of thing, far better than most any other RPG I've ever played.

[BumblingBear]

@ infusco  Personally i couldn't care less about weather the characters are balanced, if we want the game to be true to the novels in fact they shouldn't be, harry tends to do all the heavy lifting and theres a reason for that. certainly if you have players who feel left out or aren't having fun then theres a problem.

However whenever possible i prefer to pick players who are playing a game because they want to take part in the same kind of story as portrayed by the setting we are in, so yes some of them should expect and in fact enjoy that they aren't as scary in combat as other characters.

This is true too.

There is a PC in my game who is 2 refresh shorter than everyone else because it was not thematically appropriate for him to be as powerful as everyone else.  He also isn't all that great (yet) in a stand up fight.

However, his character is awesome to interact with (he has a pirate ghost haunting him) and he arguably has the most room to advance of every character at the table.

I see balance being a big deal in MMORPGS, but not RPGs per se.  I mean, plenty of people liked RIFTS (which DFRPG is vastly superior to in every conceivable way - but that is neither here nor there) and part of the cool factor was that two PCs in the same campaign could have such vastly different power levels.

There are games out there for people who want meticulous balance.  D&D 4E is one I can think of off the top of my head.  However, DFRPG is cool as much because everyone an contribute regardless of circumstances if they are creative enough, AND because people can play what they want to play.