Author Topic: If Humanity found out about the supernatural world would it 'win'?  (Read 6182 times)

Offline bitterpill

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I read this on one of the other posts


 Although Wizard's cannot mess with people's mind, Fae and other supernatural could. I think if humanity did discover the existence of the Supernatural, it could go as badly for them as for the Supernatural factions. But that is another discussion for another topic.


It made me wonder if humantity did find out about the supernatural worlds and its predatory nature would it win the ineviatable war that would follow. I think it probably would win against the vampires because of thier weaknesses but how would it deal with the rest of the supernatural world and would the white council be on the side of the mortal or the supernatural world.   
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: If Humanity found out about the supernatural world would it 'win'?
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2011, 07:54:09 PM »
There would not be a war. There could, however, be an enormous terrorist vs state style conflict.

The "nations" of the supernatural world are not like those of the mundane one. They cannot fight with mundane nations on equal terms. All they can do is butcher mortals.

Ultimately, no side has the slightest chance of victory. Except for the Denarians or Outsiders, who might be able to pull off an apocalypse.

Offline bitterpill

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Re: If Humanity found out about the supernatural world would it 'win'?
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2011, 08:06:24 PM »
Yer wiping out the entire supernatural world is a pretty tall order even for modern militarised state I bet the government's would also start weaponising minor talents and sorcerers which would muddy the water a bit with the laws of magic.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: If Humanity found out about the supernatural world would it 'win'?
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2011, 08:17:05 PM »
Muddy the waters, yes. But there's no country to invade if you want to fight against the supernatural, and your enemy could be anyone. In fact, there are probably a few supernatural beings in every government.

Think about the logistics of a wizard vs mortal conflict. The wizard can kill a couple thousand mortals in an evening (if he doesn't care about the laws), but he'll die if he gets shot once. So whoever attacks first wins. But the wizard can't win because a) he doesn't want to exterminate humanity and b) there are too damn many mortals. And the mortals can't win because they can't track the wizard down if he decides to hide.

And just to make war more impossible, neither side is remotely united. What if China welcomes the White Council and Japan tries to exterminate them? What if the White King runs for President of the US while the Red King attempts to kill every mortal in Mexico?

tl;dr: It would all be a giant charlie foxtrot. Not a real war.

Offline Bruce Coulson

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Re: If Humanity found out about the supernatural world would it 'win'?
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2011, 08:19:38 PM »
Oh, if humanity (particularly the leadership) found out about (and could accept) the supernatural, it would be a nightmare...for the supernaturals.

The White Council is finished.  Every single Warden is guilty of murder.  (As defined by the law in most countries.)  And a parallel system of government competing with recognized mortal government authority?  The White Council would be dubbed a 'terrorist organization', its members subject to arrest.

The Vampires are in BIG trouble.  Most of them are guilty of murder.  And they're vampires; the dead/undead have no legal rights.  The White Court might be able to buy some time and protection, but they'd be tolerated only on sufferance, and their willingness to cooperate with mortal governments in 'special missions'.  Which would pit them against each other...

Changelings?  They're citizens; but they're subject to supernatural control by a foreign government.  Internment camps in civilized nations; the rest, well...

The Fae?  Foreign nationals here illegally.  If deportation isn't an option, then imprisonment certainly is.

I see a far more paranoid, repressive world.

Even Denarians would have problems.  Much of their power comes from everyone keeping the supernatural secret.  And they're beholden to demons to boot.  (A Denarian surrenders his coin, then is tried for murder and executed.  The coin is put into orbit, or possibly sent to the Moon.)

The Knight of the Cross?  Murder is still murder; 'sanctioned' by God or not.  Vigilante justice is not approved of by most mortal law enforecment agencies.

It wouldn't be a 'war', because mortal government wouldn't recognize supernatural factions as 'nations'  Of course, that means the rules of war wouldn't apply, either.
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Offline Lash Dresden

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Re: If Humanity found out about the supernatural world would it 'win'?
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2011, 08:23:03 PM »
Jim posted about this once.  I'll try to find it.
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Offline AlexFallad

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Re: If Humanity found out about the supernatural world would it 'win'?
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2011, 08:26:59 PM »
Reminds me of the SR debates as to whether the Amerindian nations backed by spirit magic really could bring the USA to its knees and force a negotiated creation of a mid-west Amerindian nation state.

At least in Dresden, magic would be used by both sides; in SR at that time the Amerindian shamans could summon spirits unchallenged. Spirits versus a tank division...no contest.

In Dresden terms , that's a malevolent creature capable of materializing and going astral at-will, and when materialized (like *pop* inside the tank) you've got tank crewmen dealing with a creature that is like Armor:4, Weapon :3, and Fists at Great or Superb...

Offline Lash Dresden

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Re: If Humanity found out about the supernatural world would it 'win'?
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2011, 08:33:17 PM »
OK, this is Jim's post I was thinking of -- he was responding to someone who asked, "why don't wizards just WIN (in pre-complex tech eras)?"  It's not exactly on point to this discussion, but these were the bits I was thinking of:   

Quote
Wizards have to sleep.  Yes, an enraged wizard could probably kill just about anyone he wanted to, flatten towns, all the mighty wizard stuff.  But... there are about a million humans to every full-blown wizard talent.  A strong wizard can kill a mortal with about as much effort as it would take you to pick up a piece of gravel and toss it twenty feet.  Now, go out to a gravel pile and do that a MILLION times.

You aren't going to finish that project today

Quote
PEOPLE BELIEVED IN MAGIC AND IT SCARED THEM.  I mean, there was none of this "but there's no such thing as magic" nonsense involved.  And not all the witch hunters were in it for the money.  There was a class of men who knew all about the various forces of the supernatural, out there in the darkness, and who made themselves as able to contend with them as any mortal could be.  If a wizard went all kaboomy on mortals, he knew that there was someone who was going to hunt him, striking in a moment of vulnerability.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: If Humanity found out about the supernatural world would it 'win'?
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2011, 08:33:59 PM »
The fact that the supernatural has been revealed doesn't mean that every supernatural's identity is known to the government. It also doesn't mean that the governments of the world will suddenly start working together. It also doesn't mean that the governments of the world will suddenly stop being bureaucratic messes. It also doesn't mean that governments will be able to enter the Nevernever.

In conclusion: the scenario in which supernaturals are persecuted by mortal humanity is more or less impossible. Humanity simply wouldn't be able to pull it off.

What is possible is a scenario in which the government tries to enforce the laws of mortal society upon supernatural beings. It wouldn't go well. For anyone.

Offline Drachasor

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Re: If Humanity found out about the supernatural world would it 'win'?
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2011, 08:35:01 PM »
IIRC, the fae are limited in how much they can affect the mortal world (they need agreements and such to do so).

The Denarians would be a joke against most governments if they were aware of them and their capabilities.  They wouldn't survive modern ordinance well.

In fact, after a span of some chaos for probably a decade, maybe more, which would involve some serious property damage, mortals would probably come out on top (I imagine the White Council would align itself with humanity, which would help, but not be necessary).  Generally though, I don't think civilization would be in danger.

Consider stuff from the books.

(click to show/hide)

Overall, supernatural enemies of humanity wouldn't stand a chance.

Offline Drachasor

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Re: If Humanity found out about the supernatural world would it 'win'?
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2011, 08:38:42 PM »
The fact that the supernatural has been revealed doesn't mean that every supernatural's identity is known to the government. It also doesn't mean that the governments of the world will suddenly start working together. It also doesn't mean that the governments of the world will suddenly stop being bureaucratic messes. It also doesn't mean that governments will be able to enter the Nevernever.

In conclusion: the scenario in which supernaturals are persecuted by mortal humanity is more or less impossible. Humanity simply wouldn't be able to pull it off.

What is possible is a scenario in which the government tries to enforce the laws of mortal society upon supernatural beings. It wouldn't go well. For anyone.

Consider what side the White Council will support.  Governments are quite capable overall, even if they can be inefficient (what isn't?).  There'd certainly be some treaties between them regarding supernatural threats, much like we have such things regarding mundane threats.  Add in some wizards and the like helping out the governments and military, and there's no way the Supernatural world in general comes out on top.  Mortals would triumph.  Heck, the books basically already state this; magic used to be a bigger deal, humanity has already done a lot to displace supernatural beings just by growing large.  Regular mortals are the sleeping giant.

Offline Lash Dresden

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Re: If Humanity found out about the supernatural world would it 'win'?
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2011, 08:44:46 PM »
Jim also said this, in regard to why the Black Court didn't just set up shop somewhere and start biting people -- I think it also applies here: 

Quote
Nukes. 
You get all /that/ assertive, and you risk stirring mortals into awareness.  And we monkeys are /dangerous/ in large groups, especially with all our ferromancy (technology). 
. . .
the mortals started cheating, and doing all their fighting in angry mobs, and creating weapons that were ridiculously overpowered for the job of killing one another which could actually inconvenience, wound, or even kill a BC vamp. 

Jim was only addressing the Black Court, specifically, but all of Faerie would be vulnerable to mortals who could open a way (or several hundred) and set off bombs containing iron.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: If Humanity found out about the supernatural world would it 'win'?
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2011, 08:48:25 PM »
Nobody would come out on top. Nobody would triumph. Everyone would get screwed.

A Senior Council wizard could kill Congress by satellite drop with no trouble at all. Your points about how easily supernaturals could be killed are totally correct. But it cuts both ways. Both sides in this conflict are totally vulnerable.

Offline Paynesgrey

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Re: If Humanity found out about the supernatural world would it 'win'?
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2011, 08:52:34 PM »
"Earthbound" supernaturals like WC or Black Court could be in all sorts of trouble, but the Fae and other Never Never types not dependant on the mortal world would be a tough nut to tickle, much less crack.  

Mortal nations and agencies simply lack the means to project power, to apply any meaningful military force into the Never Never.  Any attack on their home turf would require supernatural assistance, be like Luddites trying to attack orbital fortresses without using "The Evil of Technology" to do so.  We just can't throw rocks that far.  

The natives of the Never Never could, however, attack pretty much any soft or hard target they choose with relative impunity.  Hex air traffic control or financial/stock market computers and their backups.  Dump a few hundred Hobbs into Thunder Mountain's guts, maybe something sent to chew some holes in the Three Gorges Dam's foundation.  Lord only knows what plagues they could funnel into Any City Worldwide's food or water supply.  Drought and freezing rain in the Ukraine and Midwest?  Why yes, thank you, a famine would be lovely...

The Denarians would fare pretty well I'm guessing.  For every person or group seeking to launch some silver into orbit or the sun, you'll have 1584 people, nations, intelligence agencies, and corporations thinking they can take them and control them.  Paging Doctor Saruman, your White Hand is ready.


The Never Never Natives have all manner and means to give us the dry and sandy corncob, but our opportunities to strike at them are slimmer and not so reliable.  Say we get someone to open a gateway and slip a nuke through.  It might not even go off.  Send an army through, all toting iron?  That's fine... until the air they must breath drops to minus 50.  (Neurovore suggested that one in another "Could invade the Never Never discussion.)

Offline bitterpill

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Re: If Humanity found out about the supernatural world would it 'win'?
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2011, 09:00:46 PM »
It kind of depends on whether the white council and other supernatural organisation sided with man with magic backing the never never could be invaded and if humanity invaded winter, summer would use the opportunity to invade and visa versa there is also the fact that the gods would likely be drawn in as well and who knows which way they would go,the supernatural world would implode as their very natured precludes unity.
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