What Can My Character Trade To the Winter Crone For An Unmaking?

[Drachasor]

In order to remove a Loup-garou curse, would take a similar level of fine magic... I think your ball park figure of 50 shifts Might be in the area of breaking the curse, but it would practically be a raw attack on the curse itself, which would most likely Kill the man underneath..  You'd also be in danger of altering his self on some level, at the very least, easily breaking ground into law territory and black magic.

All that really depends on the GM.  Certainly the Loup Garou curse is quite different from Vampirism (no demon tagging along, just you), and getting turned into something that can't live.  There's no particular reason to think it would be as hard as either one of those to handle.  I think undoing such a curse is AT WORST in a gray area of the rules.  You are counterspelling a transformation, not doing a transformation yourself.  The counterspelling might be a bit delicate to do, but that doesn't make it a violation.  Certainly judging by intent you are perfectly fine.  The intent is to undo a violation, giving someone back their freedom, not to bend a person or their body to your will.

And yeah, a ton of shifts like that won't be easy, but it is a hard, achievable goal that the OP can go after instead of trying to negotiate with an unfathomably powerful and likely fickle entity.

[JustinS]

Right now she's looking at trading her power for am Unmaking, but I'm open to other suggestions.  Children are not an option, nor is anything else that would impede another's free will.  But if anyone can figure something out, it's going to be this board.  Thanks!

Well, if it is a matter of free-will and children being raised by fae, there is offering up your firstborn, such that the next child you would otherwise be the parent of is simply never born...

[bitterpill]

To undo the Loup Garou your going against the will of a very powerful entity im not sure if this canon but the very first Loup Garou was cursed by Luna (the moon goddess), at the very least your dealing with a curse put down by a god-like power on par with one of the Queens or a member of the High Sidhe to rouse the ire of godlike power the family of the cursed must of done something quite severe so given the nature of those sort of powers I bet that if you tried to counter-spell it you would find all sorts of fatal traps weeved into the binding like the landmines in wards. Even if you managed to counter-spell the curse then you will gained the ire of a god-like power or at the least a Powerful member of the high Sidhe who will  if your lucky send her minions to punish you for you presumption and if your not come herself.   

[Tbora]

To undo the Loup Garou your going against the will of a very powerful entity im not sure if this canon but the very first Loup Garou was cursed by Luna (the moon goddess), at the very least your dealing with a curse put down by a god-like power on par with one of the Queens or a member of the High Sidhe to rouse the ire of godlike power the family of the cursed must of done something quite severe so given the nature of those sort of powers I bet that if you tried to counter-spell it you would find all sorts of fatal traps weeved into the binding like the landmines in wards. Even if you managed to counter-spell the curse then you will gained the ire of a god-like power or at the least a Powerful member of the high Sidhe who will  if your lucky send her minions to punish you for you presumption and if your not come herself.   

The old gods have gone dormant by and large, its unlikely they would come out of that because some poor punks family like they cursed way got cured imo.

[Drachasor]

To undo the Loup Garou your going against the will of a very powerful entity im not sure if this canon but the very first Loup Garou was cursed by Luna (the moon goddess), at the very least your dealing with a curse put down by a god-like power on par with one of the Queens or a member of the High Sidhe to rouse the ire of godlike power the family of the cursed must of done something quite severe so given the nature of those sort of powers I bet that if you tried to counter-spell it you would find all sorts of fatal traps weeved into the binding like the landmines in wards. Even if you managed to counter-spell the curse then you will gained the ire of a god-like power or at the least a Powerful member of the high Sidhe who will  if your lucky send her minions to punish you for you presumption and if your not come herself.   

There's a canonical Loup Garou that was made by someone that is dead (human).  So it isn't necessarily done by a god-like power.  Also, like Tbora said, old gods aren't so active anymore....and besides, I know I'd feel better fighting a jerk old god that did such a curse rather than signing away my capabilities to defend people or the like.

[bitterpill]

I personally think anyone capable of that level of spell would of put safeguards into the spell to stop it being dispelled like traps and landmines so though its doable in character to perhaps undo the spell it would be very dangerous and the sort of thing that should be done with more than one wizard and months of preperation. Does anyone know if there are any rules for leaving traps in your thamaturgy so they can't  be dispelled without significant risk to the dispeller, if you do manage to dispell the loup garou with a ritual I would be fascinated to know how hard your gm would make the ritual,its the sort of thing I probably would use an entire secession on and get the entire party involved getting ingredients, researching etc.  Quick estimate of the complexity of the loup Garou curse is at 149 complexity (20 for duration(to the n generation) +24(concequences + stress)  +105 (5x21 refresh) I am estimating it this high because i think a refresh worth of powers is at least worth 5 complexity you could probably argue it could even be as high as ten). This estimate is more thematic than anything else it's high but you could argue that it should be a lot higher considering I think the curse would have failsafes I would probably count the total spell complexity at 150-170.  I think that 30 complexity counter spell might be a little low for dis-spelling this curse.      

[Drachasor]

I personally think anyone capable of that level of spell would of put safeguards into the spell to stop it being dispelled like traps and landmines so though its doable in character to perhaps undo the spell it would be very dangerous and the sort of thing that should be done with more than one wizard and months of preperation. Does anyone know if there are any rules for leaving traps in your thamaturgy so they can't  be dispelled without significant risk to the dispeller, if you do manage to dispell the loup garou with a ritual I would be fascinated to know how hard your gm would make the ritual,its the sort of thing I probably would wuse an entire secession on and get the entire party involved getting ingredients, researching etc.   

Well, if they are part of the thaumaturgy, then I guess they might piggy-back on duration increases....not sure there (if they don't, there's little reason not to apply them separately).  It isn't like the Loup Garou thing is easy to dispel though.  We're talking about something that takes 30-odd shifts.  If your Lore is 5, that's still 14 or so aspects you have to use.  Of course, if the GM wanted to make it harder, they could add other spells to detect and counter or increase the number of shifts.  That said, a 30-shift ritual is a pretty big deal, generally.

[Emburii]

Oh, being being willing to fight whatever made the curse if that comes up is not going to be a problem.  The character is literally willing to give her own life in the service  of what is right, at one point the rest of the group had to knock her out to stop her from going after a murderous dragon they thought was unbeatable (the GM later revealed we might have been able to take it).  And the last time a foe had her grappled, she called down ten shifts on lightning on both of them at the same time.  And this willingness to take on anything will not change even if she does trade her powers.

I like the idea of a Making, as well, because that has some serious potential...I'll mention that to the GM.  There's also the idea of trading the LOup-Garou's power itself in exchange for something else.

[tymire]

Well it seems easiest way might to be to redirect the curse onto yourself.  Than somehow deal with it or not.    I mean who wouldn't mind being furry once a month? 

The mothers though are all about the balace, power wise remember they are above the Queens, they just never use it.  So trading power/life whatever probably wouldn't interest them in the slightest.  However, a favor like what what was done in the books to set things in thier proper places "might" interest them.  Ofcourse good luck finding them if they don't want to be found....

[Richard_Chilton]

There's a canonical Loup Garou that was made by someone that is dead (human).  So it isn't necessarily done by a god-like power.  Also, like Tbora said, old gods aren't so active anymore....and besides, I know I'd feel better fighting a jerk old god that did such a curse rather than signing away my capabilities to defend people or the like.

Are you sure?

I don't see St. Patrick as a wizard.  I see him as saying "God, send the serpents out of Ireland" and them going because god wills it.  And then saying "God, curse this man and his line until the End of Days" and it happening because god wills it.

If St. Patrick wasn't a wizard then the power of the spell had to come from somewhere.

Richard

[Emburii]

...power is not just a term applied to wizards.  Even normal humans can bring up a circle, though it's not very strong.  Then there's the idea of someone having power and just channeling it through their faith; that does not require God, just the human tendency to map agency and make up stories.  But at any rate, that is not what this thread was started to discuss.  Please keep 'goddidit' and discussions of religions and their validity out of this topic.

[Drachasor]

Are you sure?

I don't see St. Patrick as a wizard.  I see him as saying "God, send the serpents out of Ireland" and them going because god wills it.  And then saying "God, curse this man and his line until the End of Days" and it happening because god wills it.

If St. Patrick wasn't a wizard then the power of the spell had to come from somewhere.

Richard

A few points.

1.  Doesn't seem like the White God's MO when you look at the Knights of the Cross.

2.  If it was his direct doing, then he was being a jerk and yeah, opposing jerk behavior even from a guy who normally seems pretty ok is the right thing to do.  If he gets in a huff about it, then he's STILL being a major jerk regarding that issue.

3.  No reason to think St. Patrick couldn't have been a wizard and religious.  Heck, no reason to think he even had True Faith.  Saints aren't necessarily chosen for good reasons.  The most stringent selection system is used for Knights of the Cross.

In any case, the Loup Garou curse is a monstrous and evil thing to do.  It kills innocent people; doesn't matter how bad the person who gets the curse is, it KILLS INNOCENT PEOPLE.  It then causes innocent family members to get punished as well.  Again, it's monstrously evil.  Getting rid of it is a good thing.

[Richard_Chilton]

1.  Doesn't seem like the White God's MO when you look at the Knights of the Cross.

Generational curses are biblical.
As for the Knights, didn't Micheal at one point (Grave Peril) basically say: "if you made a deal with that thing of your own freewill I can't help you against it?". 

2.  If it was his direct doing, then he was being a jerk and yeah, opposing jerk behavior even from a guy who normally seems pretty ok is the right thing to do.  If he gets in a huff about it, then he's STILL being a major jerk regarding that issue.

Then again, it could be him trying to teach Patrick a lesson about hubris.

3.  No reason to think St. Patrick couldn't have been a wizard and religious.  Heck, no reason to think he even had True Faith.  Saints aren't necessarily chosen for good reasons.  The most stringent selection system is used for Knights of the Cross.

There's no evidence for him being a wizard - not in any legend.  Saints, at least those with power, are supposedly picked by god (as opposed to the archangels handing out the swords).

Saying "Well there's no evidence against it so it might be true" is an invalid as talking about all those mailmen that Billy killed.  No, there's nothing in the books about him assuming wolf form to chase and eat mailmen, but there's nothing that says he doesn't.

In any case, the Loup Garou curse is a monstrous and evil thing to do.  It kills innocent people; doesn't matter how bad the person who gets the curse is, it KILLS INNOCENT PEOPLE.  It then causes innocent family members to get punished as well.  Again, it's monstrously evil.  Getting rid of it is a good thing.

It serves as a warning - do blah and your line will be cursed to the end times.  And I'm not encouraging the creation of them - just pointing out that from my reading of that book it doesn't appear that mortals can either curse them or cure them.

The MacFinn line probably encountered countless wizards over the years and none of them could end the curse.  MacFinn himself had someone construct a three ringed magic circle to contain the beast.  Someone built "a cage for demonic demigods and archangels" but couldn't end the curse.  If someone could build a cage to keep Jake in (or out) but not in the curse, well, to me that says that only Great Powers could do it.

Richard

[Drachasor]

Generational curses are biblical.
As for the Knights, didn't Micheal at one point (Grave Peril) basically say: "if you made a deal with that thing of your own freewill I can't help you against it?". 

White God and Old Testament God aren't necessarily the same guy.  Certainly by the time St. Patrick comes around, that sort of thing isn't going on.  And the free will thing is exactly my point, the curse robs someone of their free will a few nights a month and forces them to go around killing people nearby.  Further, it really goes against the whole redemption schtick the white god pushes.

Then again, it could be him trying to teach Patrick a lesson about hubris.

Which would make the white god a jerk since his lesson involved getting hundreds or even thousands of people killed over time.  Worst lesson ever!

There's no evidence for him being a wizard - not in any legend.  Saints, at least those with power, are supposedly picked by god (as opposed to the archangels handing out the swords).

The Catholic Church says they are picked by god, but it's political.  Further, when miracles are performed by people saying they are religious, then it is faith and god doing it.  When they are done by someone saying they aren't, then it is magic, wizardry, paganism, or whatever else is handy.  If Harry said he was doing the white god's work, and managed to cure some diseases and the like, he could probably pretty easily be made a saint by the Catholic Church.

Saying "Well there's no evidence against it so it might be true" is an invalid as talking about all those mailmen that Billy killed.  No, there's nothing in the books about him assuming wolf form to chase and eat mailmen, but there's nothing that says he doesn't.

Well, there's certainly evidence he could be a wizard.  He cursed that guy.  He did magic.  We're not talking about someone that didn't do anything.

It serves as a warning - do blah and your line will be cursed to the end times.  And I'm not encouraging the creation of them - just pointing out that from my reading of that book it doesn't appear that mortals can either curse them or cure them.

Yeah, because that's a great warning.  That's why Harry was so familiar with it.  Heck, they don't even know why the guy was cursed.  Horrible warning.  Further, it's EVIL.  A warning that results in a bunch of innocent people dying is evil.  Those innocents are dead because of the white god if he was powering that curse, that puts their blood on his hands and there are tons of other ways to handle it.

The MacFinn line probably encountered countless wizards over the years and none of them could end the curse.  MacFinn himself had someone construct a three ringed magic circle to contain the beast.  Someone built "a cage for demonic demigods and archangels" but couldn't end the curse.  If someone could build a cage to keep Jake in (or out) but not in the curse, well, to me that says that only Great Powers could do it.

It isn't easy getting all those shifts and other bits together to end such a curse.  Far easier to make those containment circles.  We only have evidence they ever encounter ONE real person of any talent (the one that originally made those circles) and we don't even know if they WERE a wizard.  Perhaps the containment was the limit of their capability.  It's always easier to contain than remove, even in the game.  A level 20 block would very easily contain him, whereas you are going to need more like twice those shifts to get rid of the curse (to say nothing of symbolic links).


Anyhow, fundamentally, and back to the original topic more or less, any being that did this curse did a great evil.  I don't care what their past accomplishments are or their recommendations.  The curse directly results in tons of innoncents dying and other innocents being punished.  It's an evil thing.  If there's a being that shows up after removing it and that being is upset, then they are defending evil.  A warden would have plenty of reason for removing such a curse AND opposing any entity that got upset by it.  This also provides plenty of reason to try to deal with it oneself.  A powerful being might just pickup the curse and toss it elsewhere if you let them interfere, or they have a price that requires you impede your ability to help others.  Contain the beast, spend time studying it and the curse, and figuring out a way to end it is slower and safer.

[bitterpill]

To undo the spell your going to need something akin to the power that created it is the theory the only way to get that much power is either through leveraging the lives of other (either through lust or human sacrafices), leveraging the power of a sponsor (the white god etc) or spending years on the enchantment. Im not going to argue about complexity cost beyond the fact that the only ritual bigger than it I could think of is a Dark Hallow which involved the sacrafising of hundreds of souls. Unless your willing to become the eternal pawn of a sponsor or break the laws of magic then I see no way for a single wizard to disenchant that level of spell in the timeframe of a normal game.  

I suppose you could take him with you to Edinburgh and beg a favour of the senior council with enough wizards the impossible becomes possible, but considering the council is at war they might not be willing to use so much effort or resources on such a small matter.