Evocation Manipulation of Elements

[bitterpill]

I brought an example in another forum on player mistakes of burning building my character a pyro-mancer was blocked by a wall of fire, I then used evocation to manipulate the position of the fire. I drew it in and shot it benhind me at those following, someone on the forums said that my GM shouldn't of allowed this as it was against the spirit of evocation but considering that Geomancy is all about moving the position and density of earth thats allready there I don't see any reason that pyromancy could not achieve the same effect.

What do other people think is manipulating pre-existing elements and mis-use of the evocation system?

[Imp]

I wouldn't give it the same effect as Geomancy purely because of the difference between the two elements involved.  Where earth is solid and static, fire is alive.. you can control and move earth with ease but fire you direct.

As for the game play i see no BIG problem with what was done, as long as it was the player "played" it right.  Say if the player wanted to draw the flames into them and then release it was a blast directed then no.   But if the player wanted re-direct the fire wall as to create a door or opening then i would allow it, but everything in the path of the re-directed flames would be burned and spread.

That is my take on the play side of it, as per the hard rules i am not (never have) been a hard core by the word person so someone else will pick up that slack.

[Moriden]

sounds valid to me.

[infusco]

Actually, this is something I've always wondered myself ... if it's possible to create a *Block* zone barrier that could *Attack* anyone crossing it, i.e Wall of Fire.

As for ability to throw the wall of fire at the mobs, that's actually covered under "Redirecting Spell Energy" (YS260). Assuming the Wall of Fire is still up (maintained) that round, you could take the shifts covered by it's main effect (not the duration if I read it right) and turn it into shifts of an *Attack* without having to burn another point of mental stress or rolling for control of the spell (although you still need to roll Discipline for targeting).

So, say, a 6 shift zone barrier could be converted into a Weapon 4 attack that covers an entire zone (since that's what you're describing - a wall of fire blowing forward and cooking everything in it's path).

That being said, that wall would be immediately dissipated after the attack, so you can't just push it from one zone border to the next in one exchange. That would indeed be a tad overpowered. But you could throw up a new wall in the next exchange and just claim, for flavor, that it's the same wall.

[infusco]

Oh wait ... my bad. It was your character that was blocked by *someone else's* wall of fire.

No, can't be done as what you're referring to is wrestling control of a spell from it's owner ... which is likely at power levels far above what this campaign can allow. Not even High Council members were shown to be able to do so in the books.  But you can counterspell it (YS253)

[bitterpill]

It was wild fire just the effects of fallout one of the other PC thought a 12 shift Hellfire Blast would be a good idea. It would be redirecting energy just not spell energy probably it would make more sense to do it with Aeromancy as controlling the fires air supply and drafts could allow you to manipulate it. 

[devonapple]

If this is someone else's fire wall, you need to Counterspell it, and you can't really redirect the energy.

If this was an environmental condition that the GM set up for other reasons, and all you were doing was damaging someone else, without taking down the wall of fire, then in this situation I would have cast a fire Evocation as normal, and then free-tagged the "Wall of Fire" Scene Aspect (or Zone Aspect) for a +2 to the Discipline check.

The GM may not have made it an official Scene/Zone Aspect, though - he should allow you to Declare it as an Aspect - it's right there. Should be a free Declaration, no skill roll involved. This is the sort of environmental awareness we want to encourage - people using what's available in the scene.

If you wanted it gone, and it was an Aspect, you just need an opposing Evocation Maneuver to cancel out the Aspect. The GM sets the difficulty for that.

Now, if this was a Zone Border you wanted removed or bypassed, like making a door, then I would have run it as Evocation and asked for enough shifts to equal the value of the Zone Border, plus shifts for duration if multiple people across multiple Exchanges needed to pass through it to escape.

And if you wanted to do both? Open that door AND attack enemies with the section of fire you "tore away" you'd either need to either impress the GM and let him have you cast both at the same time, which is a LOT of Mental Stress (but sounds heroic). Or, you would:

Exchange 1: 4+ shift Evocation Fire maneuver to place Sticky Aspect "Tear in the Fire Wall" - allies tag it for a +2 to their Athletics checks to cross the border (the first escapee is probably going to take the free tag).
Exchange 2: Tag it (using a Fate Point if someone already used the free tag) for a +2 to your fire evocation, explaining that you are throwing the fire you tore out of the wall.

[infusco]

A wall of fire is essentially an Aspect on the scene that a GM might compel on you ("here, have a fate point. you're not crossing this raging inferno." "Nah, I'll give you one instead to do this: .... "

Turn around and cast an zone-wide attack on the zone behind you. Invoke the Raging Inferno aspect (and spend another Fate point, unless your GM likes your idea and is simply okay with you just having spent one to counter the compel) and claim the flavor text that you blew the wall of fire behind you.

Obviously, a lot of this is up to GM and player negotiation, but a good GM would reward a player for being so creative.

Hell, the GM could have just handled that fire as a zone barrier to roll against, and not actually named any Aspects, hoping that you'd Declare it and hence get a free Tag

[sinker]

For the most part I think I agree with devonapple (didn't we just cover moving through zone borders? ). I would have written something much the same. I had an interesting Idea though. Since it seems like one is using the existing fire to power the attack spell (instead of controlling it) you could handle it like sponsor debt. Spend a fate point to invoke the aspect and add shifts to the spell. I can see a real potential for this kind of thing to be abused if a GM were to let it, but it seems to work better thematically. Just a random idea I had.

[My Dark Sunshine]

I drew it in and shot it benhind me at those following, someone on the forums said that my GM shouldn't of allowed this as it was against the spirit of evocation

In all honesty, if it worked for the group you were roleplaying with, ignore what someone else thinks. I don't mean to ignore any advice or suggestions they offer, but I'd not dwell on it or worry about it too much.

In all honesty I think that thematically what you describe is well within the scope of Evocation. Sure its quick and dirty, but direct manipulation of an element seems plausible. Mechnically however, is where the problems creep in. However others have already discussed this a fair amount.

[MijRai]

This may just be me, but I would run moving the fire as a manuever, and then tag that to throw the fire back.

[Drachasor]

I think a proper wall of fire would best be done as kind of a ward that attacks people crossing it.  A Block could stop it or at least heavily reduce its affect.

If it is done as a maneuver, that's easy to get rid of, you just do a Fire Evocation maneuver to remove the Wall of Fire aspect like Devon said.

[bitterpill]

The wall of fire was a result of 4 shifts of fallout as our wizard botched his hellfire discipline roll, the gm decided to tag the area with hellish inferno and as the party decided to flee said that one of the exits was blocked by fire. So the way people would argue to do what I did which was draw the fire into a ball in one round and shoot it at the enemies in the next would be to do a manouvre in the first round to unblock the exit and in the second round tag the aspect to make a fire attack.

[devonapple]

The wall of fire was a result of 4 shifts of fallout as our wizard botched his hellfire discipline roll, the gm decided to tag the area with hellish inferno and as the party decided to flee said that one of the exits was blocked by fire. So the way people would argue to do what I did which was draw the fire into a ball in one round and shoot it at the enemies in the next would be to do a manouvre in the first round to unblock the exit and in the second round tag the aspect to make a fire attack.

I think I see where the conflict may have come in - the Aspect was a result of Fallout, which some could argue has a little more plot weight than just a Scene Aspect and is therefore not so easily removed.

YS 257: "Remember, the wizard was arrogant enough to try to control the forces of the universe—and failed.When fallout happens, it’s the universe putting that wizard in his place, and it’s the GM’s job to take the universe’s side. Greek tragedies have been written about this sort of thing."