Newbie Players And Basic Tactics

[noretoc]

@Mijrai: thank you for the outbreak of realism.  Much appreciated.

@Hey, Bitterpill, I've got some news for you: My game isn't at Submerged!  Right now, they've all got 9 base refresh. Also, amazingly, not everyone takes fire as an evocation element.  My wizard-warden PC is an earth mage, with Air, Earth and Spirit for evocation.  Also, remember that fire is still just that: fire.  Hot air and smoke are still going to be issues, even if your GM has allowed your wizard to draw off the flames from your zone, which is something that makes me go "buh?"  And I said they levitated; not fly.  They climbed up the side of the building with a fraction of their weight.  And you just proved my point for me even better: wizards that are creative are never out of options; they could have had the hydromancer bust open a pipe and slid out of there, Bobby Drake-Iceman-style, just for one example.  The issue is that they disregarded all of those options and went into a place where their options would be constrained because they weren't thinking, they were reacting.

Also, you're forgetting one major, massive issue: There. Are. Still. People. In. The. Building.  People work late, even on the weekends.  Students are studying.  Setting the building on fire, or even using any evocations indiscriminately, is an invitation to take Lawbreaker. 

@ Lanir: I agree, we all need to start learning somewhere, and making mistakes is one of the best ways.  The list I posted was sent after the session was over as a basic primer points-to-keep-in-mind.  But, in this case, which precipitated the list, the mistakes could easily have been lethal, and should have been.  But, yeah, they need to be allowed to make mistakes.  I was just trying to share some of what I've learned so they don't make as many (in my first RPG game ever, my PC started two wars--completely by accident, so been there, done that)

Why are you asking for feedback and then jumping at the people providing it?  To me it sounds like you are not giving your players enough credit.  You hit them with spooky music, which doesn't tell them anything.  They see something that look bad and they take it out.  They then go to a car that should start and doesn't.  From that point, if I was them, I would thing something is outside with me, and messed up my car.  I think getting up on the roof is a smart tactical situation.  Then they can see what is going on, have a defensible position, etc.   When that doesn't turn up anything why wouldn't they go back in the building.  There are people there.  That means if something outside (that messed with tier car) really wants them, it has to risk being seen. You haven't given them enough to think differently.  Try putting yourself in other people's shoes and look at it from their perspective before preaching. 

Also if you don't want criticism, don't ask for feedback. 

[noclue]

So, first, asking what people think of my little primer.  Second, anything to add to it?  And third: of my PCs, two of the characters themselves should know better tactics from their backstories; one is retired SAS, and the other was the apprentice of Morgan's best friend and occasionally trained with Morgan himself.  Can they compel those high concepts of theirs to ask the GM for tactical advice?

If it works for you and your group, more power to you. Seriously, you go.

But since you asked, I hate, hate, hate it. Then again, in our game we accepted a Fate point (I think the compel was on the City Aspect "Out in the Cold") that had us hooded by a group of wardens and hauled off to a remote warehouse to be tried and executed. That led to some rip-roaring wizard on wizard action, with fire and earth magicks and lots of semi-auto fire...But, you know Harry's all about the tactics. He would never find himself in a room full of a swarm of Red Court with his mundane girl friend at his side. That might lead to him having to call up a shitstorm of fire, burning down the building, killing everyone, including some people who may or may not be innocent...oops.

Regarding your players, I would have looked for a way to hand out Fate points for going back in the building and fighting the zombies rather than running, with a smile and a thank you. It would have been awesome. And if they had tried to run, I would have been looking for compels to get everyone in that building.

[toturi]

So, first, asking what people think of my little primer.  Second, anything to add to it?  And third: of my PCs, two of the characters themselves should know better tactics from their backstories; one is retired SAS, and the other was the apprentice of Morgan's best friend and occasionally trained with Morgan himself.  Can they compel those high concepts of theirs to ask the GM for tactical advice?

Thanks in advance.

I think that if your characters have qualities and abilities that your players do not have, it is better to plan for it and point out certain thing to the player/s before they make a decision. If you (as a GM) think that it is tactically wiser to regroup and recon the area, tell the player whose character has such training that his character thinks so. Do not wait till they make bad decisions before trying to rescue the situation.

Or you could make it such that the characters' action are tactically wise, alter the terrain/situation so that a seemingly bad action is really a good one.

[Drachasor]

I think that if your characters have qualities and abilities that your players do not have, it is better to plan for it and point out certain thing to the player/s before they make a decision. If you (as a GM) think that it is tactically wiser to regroup and recon the area, tell the player whose character has such training that his character thinks so. Do not wait till they make bad decisions before trying to rescue the situation.

Or you could make it such that the characters' action are tactically wise, alter the terrain/situation so that a seemingly bad action is really a good one.

I agree with this.  I'd lean towards just telling them that General Bob wouldn't think that was a tactically wise decision (well, as best I saw it anyhow).  I'd only do that for really dumb choices though (going to the roof, OK, going into the darkened library, I'd point out the issues).  I'd want to leave a good amount of room available for the player to think up clever ideas for the battle.

[Aetius]

Hey,
Now for the record I actually am one of the players in this campaign and I joined the boards pretty much for the purpose of defending my Gm's statements and to clear up some confusion. Though for the record I was not involved with the SNAFU that Bibliophile20 outlined.

The main problem was that this was meant to be a simple event.  PC's leave the library, see a strange janitor and leave the library with a sense of dread.  Then we'd get back to the regular scene.  Instead, our wizard, who is more of a power player than an RP'er got paranoid and the GM told him (through an awareness check) that the janitor was a zombie.  He panicked, fried the zombie, the malevolent force turned on the rhythm and they fled.  Once out of the building, still in a panic the wizard levitated them "out of harm" and onto the library.  For the record, the wizard has something of a "Molly Carpenter syndrome" and thinks that magic can solve all problems (this was the second time in the scenario that he had tried to use levitate, the other had talked him down the first time).

So yeah, personally, I couldn't have come up with a better option in the situation.  But yeah, the situation went off the rails and things got a little haywire.  Just wanted to clear up any confusions and say that this guy does know what he's talking about.

[bitterpill]

Levitate is unbelievable dangerous spell in the DRF if you overshoot or undershoot then at the very least your going to have a nasty fall and levitating a party of four is well extreme, if i remember I think Harry does it with 2 people but if I was GM i would make it a very high shift spell and I would make him roll discipline twice for properly guiding the levitation if I would allow it at all. 

[noclue]

The main problem was that this was meant to be a simple event.

So yeah, personally, I couldn't have come up with a better option in the situation.  But yeah, the situation went off the rails and things got a little haywire.  Just wanted to clear up any confusions and say that this guy does know what he's talking about.

You say "things got a little haywire" like it's a bad thing. To me it just looked like things got interesting. Give the Wizard an Aspect about being a Molly Carpenter and let him start earning Fate for it.

[toturi]

You say "things got a little haywire" like it's a bad thing. To me it just looked like things got interesting. Give the Wizard an Aspect about being a Molly Carpenter and let him start earning Fate for it.

It is only "interesting" if you can easily deal with it or you do not need to deal with it. Otherwise, it should be a bad thing, unless you can get Fate points for having good things happen to the character.

[Drachasor]

The main problem was that this was meant to be a simple event.  PC's leave the library, see a strange janitor and leave the library with a sense of dread.  Then we'd get back to the regular scene.  Instead, our wizard, who is more of a power player than an RP'er got paranoid and the GM told him (through an awareness check) that the janitor was a zombie.  He panicked, fried the zombie, the malevolent force turned on the rhythm and they fled.

Dude, maybe he panicked, but are you seriously saying that frying the zombie was a bad call?  I'd say leaving the zombie around would be worse, generally speaking.  Once you find out there is one zombie, it is then time to find the source and figure out what to do about it (or at least try to find the source).  Frying zombies is a pretty good instinct, especially if they are within distance of killing you.  Now, I could see an argument for being subtle there and trying to bug the zombie and figure out where its master was, but just leaving seems a bit silly and even irresponsible.

Once out of the building, still in a panic the wizard levitated them "out of harm" and onto the library.  For the record, the wizard has something of a "Molly Carpenter syndrome" and thinks that magic can solve all problems (this was the second time in the scenario that he had tried to use levitate, the other had talked him down the first time)

The car has been disabled and there are zombies around.  Thinking you are in a trap is NOT a bad call.  I think I'd personally think we are most likely to get attacked in that situation (that's why someone disabled our ride) if I was him.  Moving to somewhere safe makes sense.  Now, his choice of where to go (top of the library) wasn't the best call, but moving was definitely sensible.  Worth considering sealing the entrance to the library roof and waiting until dawn to investigate things at that point, while keeping watch.  Going into a library potentially with a bunch of zombies in it isn't a great idea.  That said, top of the library was a bad call, but I don't see how the other stuff he did was bad.

[noclue]

It is only "interesting" if you can easily deal with it or you do not need to deal with it. Otherwise, it should be a bad thing, unless you can get Fate points for having good things happen to the character.

Depends on what you mean by "good" and "bad." I can assure you my character would not view getting a burlap sack tied around his head and being hauled off to a darkened warehouse a good thing, but as a Player I thought it was nifty. So, in a way you can get Fate points for good (i.e. Interesting) things happening to your character, as long as your character isn't happy about it.

From the OP, my understanding is that the players were chastised for this behavior, when I think it sounds straight up Dresden crazy. Everything I hear about the scene makes me think the players actions are making it more fun. Got paranoid and fried a zombie? Awesome. Much better than seeing a zombie and being all "ooky" and leaving. Grabbed someone and levitated them to the top of a tower in the middle of campus and ended up right where they wanted you? Awesome. Completely awesome. I want to play that game. I want to be in that tower fighting for my life against a zombie horde. I got Fate points. I got magicks! I got stress and consequences and concessions. Let's rock.

[bibliophile20]

Going into a library potentially with a bunch of zombies in it isn't a great idea.  That said, top of the library was a bad call, but I don't see how the other stuff he did was bad.

That was kind of the point; I was trying to give context for the tactical situation that lead to the bad decision--and given the general response, it's the last time I will do so.  Sorry guys, and no offense intended, but the signal to noise ratio in this thread has been appalling and while that's in some part my fault for giving too much information, it's not entirely so.  So, thread-lock and let us just forget a post I made under the influence of no sleep and Con-rot.  'Kay?