Red Court Infected question...

[jybil178]

Basically, we should all know what a Red Court Infectee is, and what all their being entails... If one of them drinks someone to death.. They make the big leap into full fledged Red Court Vampire status, as well as get NPC'd...

But my question is this... If someone has been playing their character long enough... If the character has plenty of available refresh.. Could that person, technically play a full fledged Red Court Vampire, or would you still have to NPC them and take control of their character away?

Now, I understand from a rules point of view, why this would be done, either way.. Technically, the character is no longer a human, and turned into a full fledged monster.. But couldn't enough of a refresh be considered that the monster has retained enough of its humanity that while it may have the body, and the instincts of a true monster, it still can make the choices of a human...  Thats my only real argument, as well as the idea it could hold some potentially interesting RP... But, thats why I came here to talk to all you...

[Drachasor]

Eh, hard to say.  The books seem to indicate the soul gets destroyed and the demon takes over everything...memories remain, but the person is gone

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(I assume Susan was still in the process of changing, to an extent, when she was killed by Harry or perhaps Susan was just confused and that's why she didn't fight it).

  Fundamentally though, a Red Court infected going vampire means the original person is dead, imho.

[jybil178]

Thanks dude... I think you answered that better than I could have ever hoped for... Although, I haven't read quite that far yet.. (am only on book 10) I absolutely love the wording, and it really helps me make the decision easier.. I just wish that particular wording was used in the book >.<  I'd love to hear some other people's take on it, none the less, but again that was a very helpful point of view, hehe...

[Sh33p]

GM discretion is King. If you all can make it work, give it a shot. The original person might be gone but all the memories and the core identity is still, basically, intact. If you can't make it work, have fun with the inevitable fiery explosion of violence and betrayal.

[MijRai]

I don't know if I think they should be playable or not, but I know KOFFEYKID made a custom power that gave a Red Court he made a soul, and free will.

[sinker]

It might be interesting to see if he survives his return to the party for that matter (I.E. "He's turned. GET HIM!").

[vultur]

It's clearly intended that going full Red means NPC-dom. On the other hand, it's also clearly explained that it's positive refresh that represents mortal free will.

...so who knows? I think it wouldn't work in most games - Reds are very monstrous - but I can also see it working in the right kind of gonzo, over-the-top game.

[Saedar]

In a higher refresh game, I could see it working. Similarly, playing a True Fae. Both are monsters of one stripe or another.

However, I would also say that you are opening yourself up to Compel-City. Maybe even non-contestable compels? Make it work with your group and you will be golden! 

[Drachasor]

From a story perspective...

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Like Laciel's shadow, you could potentially give a Red Court Vampire something like Free Will by injecting soul-stuff into it (Harry did this by giving some of his will/soul to the Lash.  A magic ritual designed to preserve the soul and merge it with the demon could arguably work (Complete Transformation Ritual of some sort, effects activating upon a kill).  You'd still have to deal with hunger and other issues.  I'd say this is a 0 Refresh Ability, really, since honestly it seems like flavor to me.  Person wouldn't really be human anymore, and would be vulnerable to sunlight, have problems with thresholds, etc.  I'd say killing people by feeding would have bad consequences too...you'd have to figure that out..maybe something like Lawbreaker as they become more demonic.

[Klaus]

Basically, we should all know what a Red Court Infectee is, and what all their being entails... If one of them drinks someone to death.. They make the big leap into full fledged Red Court Vampire status, as well as get NPC'd...

But my question is this... If someone has been playing their character long enough... If the character has plenty of available refresh.. Could that person, technically play a full fledged Red Court Vampire, or would you still have to NPC them and take control of their character away?

Sure, why not. The character just needs a total refresh of 12 or more to handle the -11 refresh cost of the template. From her perspective, she was a blood-drinking, sometimes-frenzied, inhumanly strong beast even before the chance, so the jump is not that big here. Well, maybe the giant-bat-in-disguise part is ground for changing an Aspect or two...

[Richard_Chilton]

You might want to add demonic co-pilot to represent the dark side of the Red Court nature.

Richard

[devonapple]

You might want to add demonic co-pilot to represent the dark side of the Red Court nature.

Hmmm, I"m of two minds about this. It's an added mechanism to complicate what is essentially a role-playing challenge, but it could be a good reminder about the tenuous hold a Rampire would have over its ability to cooperate with others.

I *can* see one type of over-the-top situation in which a fully turned Rampire might be cooperating with "good guys": getting involved in a conflict against an even bigger threat to the world, like Outsiders -

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like how Lara and Thomas are fighting the Oblivion War as part of the Venators, a secret group of the Venatori Umbrorum dedicated to eradicate all knowledge of Outsiders - though it appears in the Red War that the Rampires may be allied with Outsiders, so this would have to be a Red who "saw the light"

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[sjksprocket]

I've been having similar thoughts over this with the whole changeling turning into full blown Fae. For both RCV and Fae they seem to Have to follow their nature, but it seems to be their choosing on how to follow said nature. I was thinking that maybe explaining to the player that they will get compels that they can't refuse, and have there refresh ratings come into play less often.

[Sh33p]

You might want to add demonic co-pilot to represent the dark side of the Red Court nature.

Richard

Better yet: The old soul is still hanging around griping at the Red and trying to compel it to Do Good. Demon with a human co-pilot

[HappyDaze]

In my opinion, you can play anything with a positive Refresh. A long as you have that, there's still some free will/soul left. I don't really see a RCV as any more monstrous than a WCV, and if Thomas can be the exceptionally humane WCV, then someone should be able to play the RCV counterpart.

I also suggest dropping Echoes of the Best from the RCV template - like the RCV named NPCs do - and adjusting the cost to -10 Refresh.  Still too much for any by the book starting character, but not much beyond that.