Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation

[jybil178]

The problem is the subject is so quickly glossed over, there isn't any clear definitions to its limitations... In all honesty, it isn't clear in the rules on this particular avenue of casting.  Most effects you'd want to use at Evocations speed, are because you'd need them now, and not after a timely preparation and casting period.  In all honesty, it could be considered very open to interpretation... Mine, well, I'm pretty sure I've established..  It also just seems to make it less abusable, but I'm mostly just wanting to see how it was really intended ;P  Its just the most annoying part about it, is you could technically use the evocation method of easily increasing a spells time, and if it you can increase it normally along a thaumaturgical spell... Thats what I don't like..  Its abusing the rules, on a technicality.

[Kommisar]

I believe it was intended to remain very flexible and not becomes an unwieldy, rigid rule.  If you are a Kimmlerite, then you can pull of Necromancy at Evocation speed.  If you are Sponsored by Odin, perhaps you can drop Divinations at Evocation Speed.

I don't think it is written as such, but I would limit like one would specialize in Thaumaturgy.  By making them take a specific type of spell OR a theme.

[jybil178]

I believe it was intended to remain very flexible and not becomes an unwieldy, rigid rule.  If you are a Kimmlerite, then you can pull of Necromancy at Evocation speed.  If you are Sponsored by Odin, perhaps you can drop Divinations at Evocation Speed.

I don't think it is written as such, but I would limit like one would specialize in Thaumaturgy.  By making them take a specific type of spell OR a theme.

Yeah, and I don't have a problem with that really, hehe... Its just an example of someone slapping on a tagable aspect to themselves at thaum at the speed of evo, then going on the next turn and making it last for the whole night, maybe even longer, easily, and it won't even take more then 2 mental stress.. Then just wait till next scene, slap on another one, rinse repeat till you have a bunch of very easily tagable aspects, as was the example mentioned previously.  In my opinion, its using overlapping rules together, in my mind flat out abusing them... And technically, it may not even be true RAW because of poor wording in certain sections.  Technically, I won't have to really worry about this, cause I know I feel it isn't right, thus I'll run it in my own game accordingly.  And others will run how they wish.

I just mostly, right now, wish to argue the letters of the law.  I see what I see, and I disagree.  I want to be either proven wrong, or argued with to attempt to dissuade me from my current logical stand point.

[Drachasor]

Yeah, and I don't have a problem with that really, hehe... Its just an example of someone slapping on a tagable aspect to themselves at thaum at the speed of evo, then going on the next turn and making it last for the whole night, maybe even longer, easily, and it won't even take more then 2 mental stress.. Then just wait till next scene, slap on another one, rinse repeat till you have a bunch of very easily tagable aspects, as was the example mentioned previously.  In my opinion, its using overlapping rules together, in my mind flat out abusing them... And technically, it may not even be true RAW because of poor wording in certain sections.  Technically, I won't have to really worry about this, cause I know I feel it isn't right, thus I'll run it in my own game accordingly.  And others will run how they wish.

You can do the same thing with regular Thaumaturgy, it is just a little slower (through magical items it is pretty much just as fast though).  It certainly is a problem with the rules regarding using magic to create aspects.  The thing that should be solved is how you allow those to stack and that solves the whole problem.

Personally, I think that you shouldn't allow aspects from more than one buff to stack on you -- the magic interferes with itself.  So maybe you can get a couple aspects on yourself from one spell, but you can't stack spells to get an arbitrarily high number.  That seems reasonable to me.  Then adjust the duration for how long they can last to a few minutes by default (e.g. one combat scene), and I think the problem is completely taken care of with pretty simple rules.

[sinker]

I think the big issue I have is that it's clearly against the RAW for one reason. You are using the prolonging spells rule. The argument that you can use thaum's duration has been reasonably well made, and if someone wanted to add shifts to the original spell to increase it thusly I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it. However you are using the prolonging spells rule, which very clearly states that it increases the duration by exchanges, not that it increases the duration in whatever manner appropriate.

[Drachasor]

I think the big issue I have is that it's clearly against the RAW for one reason. You are using the prolonging spells rule. The argument that you can use thaum's duration has been reasonably well made, and if someone wanted to add shifts to the original spell to increase it thusly I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it. However you are using the prolonging spells rule, which very clearly states that it increases the duration by exchanges, not that it increases the duration in whatever manner appropriate.

Thaumaturgy has its own rules for prolonging spells though.  You can easily make something last a long, long time doing that, leading to stacking aspects.  Taggable Aspect Tagging via Magic is still a problem.

Hmm, if you are using the Prolonging Spells section for Evocation on a Thaumaturgy cast like Evocation...which I think is ok (rules are fuzzy), then you are right it should just be one exchange per shift of power.  Better to just find room for a few more shifts to start with and you can have it last much, much longer.

[jybil178]

Drachasor, could you give me citation for increasing, or adding to a thaumaturgical spell's duration, outside of the original casting, because I'm honestly not able to find it at the moment... Second, I actually had an idea along those lines for limiting it and gave it in another thread.. It does get to a pretty crazy point, and I was thinking that it'd probably get harder and harder to place spells on someone, the more there are.  So maybe an increase in complexity for every spell already on the target?  So, if someone wanted to place 4 aspects on themselves, and cast it in a single spell, they'd have no increase in complexity.  But if they, by chance, cast it cheaply, putting one spell on top of another, and another, I'd think that maybe it would increase by 1 or 2 for every spell already on.  Or something possibly a lot more complicated, increasing the complexity of a spell going on the person by a percentage of the combined complexity of all the spells on them currently.  At that point though, you start getting a bigger headache as well ;P

sinker, i know... which is what is rubbing me a little raw... >.<  Its like trying to get all the best benefits, cherry picking from different sections of the rules for the best results, and I don't like that...

[devonapple]

I'm okay with using thaumaturgy duration when you first cast the Sponsored Magic Thaum spell (default is a scene or until sunrise, depending on the effect).

But, because of that, I would disallow attempts to extend the duration using the Prolong Spell effect - It's a really munchkin maneuver and you are already getting at least a scene's worth of effect. Thaum spells should not be extendable using Prolong Spell - they are sort of a "set it and forget it" spell effect that you let out into the world to perform a specific purpose.

If a GM has determined that a Sponsored Magic Thaum effect was going to be measured in exchanges for some reason, then I would approve extending the duration using the Prolong Spell effect, but on a 1-shift-per-exchange basis.

[Drachasor]

I didn't mean outside the original casting (though I suppose if you have a Thaum As Evo lasting until sunrise, then extending it by a few exchanges won't break anything).  If someone was proposing doing that, then yeah, that's no good.  However, you don't need that to stack aspects on you like crazy.

As for house rules, I say keep it simple.  You can only have one buffing spell giving you a given effect (maneuver, block, etc) on you at a given time (defensive magical items bypass this limitation, I suppose, but you are limited to one of them at a time).  If a new one is cast, whichever is more powerful, the new one or the old one, is the one that remains.  Making something complicated doesn't do anyone any favors.

[jybil178]

I'm okay with using thaumaturgy duration when you first cast the Sponsored Magic Thaum spell (default is a scene or until sunrise, depending on the effect).

But, because of that, I would disallow attempts to extend the duration using the Prolong Spell effect - It's a really munchkin maneuver and you are already getting at least a scene's worth of effect. Thaum spells should not be extendable using Prolong Spell - they are sort of a "set it and forget it" spell effect that you let out into the world to perform a specific purpose.

If a GM has determined that a Sponsored Magic Thaum effect was going to be measured in exchanges for some reason, then I would approve extending the duration using the Prolong Spell effect, but on a 1-shift-per-exchange basis.

 Agree fully on this...  

[BumblingBear]

You can do the same thing with regular Thaumaturgy, it is just a little slower (through magical items it is pretty much just as fast though).  It certainly is a problem with the rules regarding using magic to create aspects.  The thing that should be solved is how you allow those to stack and that solves the whole problem.

Personally, I think that you shouldn't allow aspects from more than one buff to stack on you -- the magic interferes with itself.  So maybe you can get a couple aspects on yourself from one spell, but you can't stack spells to get an arbitrarily high number.  That seems reasonable to me.  Then adjust the duration for how long they can last to a few minutes by default (e.g. one combat scene), and I think the problem is completely taken care of with pretty simple rules.

With those rules it's all but completely useless and as a player I'd never in a million years use it.

That mental stress would be much, much better used for evocations during combat.

At what point do you stop nerfing abilities?  If you nerf them too much, they aren't worth much anymore.

[jybil178]

I didn't mean outside the original casting.  If someone was proposing doing that, then yeah, that's no good.  However, you don't need that to stack aspects on you like crazy.

As for house rules, I say keep it simple.  You can only have one buffing spell giving you a given effect (maneuver, block, etc) on you at a given time (defensive magical items bypass this limitation, I suppose, but you are limited to one of them at a time).  If a new one is cast, whichever is more powerful, the new one or the old one, is the one that remains.  Making something complicated doesn't do anyone any favors.

Ahh, ok... Yeah, I couldn't find anything on prolonging a spell besides the initial casting.  And I think I can agree with your idea of a house rule as well, maybe with some slight alteration... Keeping it within a single spell, or at least making it hard to keep more than one spell up at a time... But you also have to realize... Every time you walk through a threshold, invited or otherwise, every time you pass too close to water, you'll end up having your spells attacked..  Another thing you can keep in mind, hehe..

[Drachasor]

With those rules it's all but completely useless and as a player I'd never in a million years use it.

That mental stress would be much, much better used for evocations during combat.

At what point do you stop nerfing abilities?  If you nerf them too much, they aren't worth much anymore.

Really?  Let's say you can get a Complexity 8 Evocation.  That's enough to get 2 Aspects that each last a few scenes.  If you go to complexity 10 or 12, they can last much, much longer.

If you are fighting a guy really tough in combat and have no taggable aspects from magic, then spending an exchange to do a complexity 9 or 12 spell (assuming you have foci to make this pretty easy), then the next exchange tagging them all for free to get +6 or +8 on the discipline roll could well be worth it.  It's far, far faster than any other way to do maneuvers.  People without sponsored magic can resort to magical items to give them the same benefit (well, same with people with sponsored magic).

[BumblingBear]

I think that effects lasting until sunrise would be thematically appropriate and not OP.

I personally would not let players stack tags that would last months, but I don't think doing so is against the RAW.

Consider how much power an artificer can have at his fingertips.  Yet somehow that is considered to be A-OK in the community here.

I think that regardless of how a player optimizes their character, it is up the the GM to find creative ways to deal with that.

If they stack a ton of buffs on themselves from thaumatergy, make them attract the attention of a powerful fae or put the character in a thunderstorm.  Then compel their primary aspect and have the water wash away half their buffs.

I think that nerfing abilities too much goes against the spirit of the game (a long distance, sneaky sniper is very powerful - we going to nerf that?) and is a bit lazy.

Players should not be penalized for using their abilities as per the RAW.  I mean, we're talking about stacking aspects, not a Detect City Bomb.

[BumblingBear]

Really?  Let's say you can get a Complexity 8 Evocation.  That's enough to get 2 Aspects that each last a few scenes.  If you go to complexity 10 or 12, they can last much, much longer.

If you are fighting a guy really tough in combat and have no taggable aspects from magic, then spending an exchange to do a complexity 9 or 12 spell (assuming you have foci to make this pretty easy), then the next exchange tagging them all for free to get +6 or +8 on the discipline roll could well be worth it.  It's far, far faster than any other way to do maneuvers.  People without sponsored magic can resort to magical items to give them the same benefit (well, same with people with sponsored magic).

A character would have to be at least submerged or better to pull something like that off.  In that case, I doubt they'd need it.

My character is chest deep and cannot pull off anytihng close to that kind of power.  With those rules, I don't think I'd ever in a million years use this ability.

Not everyone is able to call up 8+ shifts of power.

I despise the rules you're suggesting because they pretty much only benefit very high powered casters and leave everyone else in the cold.