example of buffs and potions from your games.

[arete]

Interesting feedback.  Thanks again for the responces.

[Moriden]

Their are two examples for you, though i would point out there is a non inconsequential chance of dieing each time either is used. When a "negative compel" is mentioned thats just my phrasing for taking a point of sponsor debt and suggesting to the st how it should be used. As some others have said there is in fact evidence in the book for adding to a skill instead of replacing it, their are no rules for how exactly you'd do that, Many moons ago however one of the moderators suggested that it was one shift per bonus, however iago then went on record to say that he didn't like that method and suggested that if your going to be temporarily buffing people you should probably just do a ritual to set up taggable aspects in lieu of fate point [or just use fate points] and use the temporary access rules. [yes i am paraphrasing i can find the relevant threads if you'd like.]

Strength of the Deep Earth
Type: Thaumaturgy, Biomancy/Summer Magic  
Complexity: [15]   Strength 12 Block or 6 armor against any harm that would not be sufficient to shatter a mountain or otherwise destroy a equally large concentration of stone.  
Duration: until the next sunrise [base duration is day. I am using the two extra shifts available to this version to push the duration to a few days.]
Effect: Block or Armor 12/6, Duration [0.], Persistence [3],  
Variations:  A slightly more martial variation works, wherein you focus more upon the parts of your body that are designed to inflict damage upon another, casting that version may be a violation of the first law, as it requires a clear intent to use magic in the process of murder. [this version is the same except that when fighting the object of your intent you substitute the strength of the ritual for your first 4 against that person.  ]

Accomplished via: base lore of 5. Hour spent in ritual meditation/purification [Discipline]+2,  Ritual bloodletting to consecrate the area to my purposes [restriction] +2, Circle carved into the ground by magic. [Lore assessment, as separate complexity 5 ritual] +2, Draw power from the deep earth [Lore assessment] +2, Only works if some part of you is touching the ground +2. [restriction], minor consequence taken [patterns carved into skin +2]



Dawnrunning - Invocation of the horned god.
In the twilight hour between night and day the ritualist must hunt, and kill a prey animal [usually a dear] using nothing more technologically advanced then a spear. The ritualist must cleanse themselves of the taint of the modern world before the ritual begins.
Type: Thaumaturgy, Biomancy
Complexity:  Duration [0 base for thaumaturgy is a day [2 shifts being used to extend the ritual to a few days in this case. Resulting in the negative aspect Noticed by the Fae], and strength [21].  complexity ritual
Duration: until the next sunrise, effectively 23 hours. Accepting a negative aspect would push the duration to a few days, but likely mess with your mind [via said aspect].
Effect: Enhance senses, instinctual response's, and physical acuity granting the ability to Tag any combination of three aspects Strength of the Earth, Speed of the Deer, Enhanced Senses, and Feline reflexes up to 7 times. Or with Story teller permission you can use these aspects in the place of fate points to pay the cost for temporary power-boosts following all applicable rules as outlined in “your world”.
Variations: A summer magic, and wyld court sponsored magic version of this ritual very likely exist. Most versions of this ritual very likely inflict consequences upon the caster along the lines of Feral Urges, and Noticed by the Fae.
Notes: This spell will very likely attracts the attention of the Erlkenieg, and possibly the summer queens as well.

Accomplished via: base lore of 5. Ritual cleansing of self to remove the taint of the modern world [conviction assessment +2], Going into the night, [seclusion for a night in the “wilderness” [Survival assessment] +2, Don't sleep [endurance]], +2, Take nothing with you beyond...[+2 restriction], Ritual dear hunt to invoke aspect of the horned god [Survival assessment +2],  Prayer for the dears soul, thanking it for its sacrifice [lore assessment +2], 1 minor physical consequences taken Exhausted [+2], Accept the negative aspects Feral Urges, and Noticed by the Fae. [+4] [23 total]


In my games if a player wants a bonus to a skill instead of a "block", i allow them to do so at the cost of three shifts per bonus and the bonus must be to a narrowly defined roll such as verse mind control as compared to a block verse all mental attacks. It hasn't been play-tested much so i don't know if ill eventually bring that number up or down. Just thought you might like some input from the other side of the arena.

[Edited slightly for spelling and grammar, i have a condition that causes my hands to hurt a great deal so you'll just have to muddle through with the best i could do.]

[arete]

Thanks a ton.  :-). 

[Sanctaphrax]

Strength of the Deep Earth seems a bit unfair. There was a discussion about such spells on this forum a while ago, and the consensus was that they should either be disallowed or heavily restricted.

It's legal by the RAW, as far as I can tell, but that doesn't mean that everyone will (or even should) allow it.

[arete]

It really seems like most buffs are against the spirit of the rules.

[Sanctaphrax]

Yeah, I know. It's nearly as bad as summoning.

But we've worked out a decent system for that, maybe we can do the same for buffs.

[arete]

I hate buffing in general, and this game is no exception.  I can see why getting refresh powers is a bad idea, but otherwise I am not sure where to draw the line.

Is the armor buff above a little powerful?  Sure, but if we are going to allow buffing the spell makes sense.

[Sanctaphrax]

You hate buffing, yet you created this thread. There must be a story behind this.

[devonapple]

You hate buffing, yet you created this thread. There must be a story behind this.

/said in my best Foghorn Leghorn voice/
Well, now, I can see - I say - I can see the value in opening a discussion about rules one may not be comfortable about, in the hopes of getting a community reality check.

That or a player insisted?

How to make Buffs sane...

Perhaps we restrict them to the same limitations as Potions and Enchanted items.

A traditional Thaumaturgic Ward requires a solid Threshold to which it can bond, and a walking, stretching, fighting human is pretty unstable as a magical platform, especially passing over all sorts of other thresholds, passing by any number of mystical resonances which would disrupt an unstable Ward.

So for these buffs, perhaps we rule that a caster can only pack so much magical defense on a moving item, and use their Lore to determine the upper bound of what they can do to their own bodies without seriously having to Transform themselves, like with enchanted items/potions?

[UmbraLux]

It really seems like most buffs are against the spirit of the rules.

I wouldn't say they're against the spirit of the rules.  However, most buffs can (and possibly should) be simulated by maneuver-created aspects.  A "strength potion" (or other buff) might give the drinker Mighty Thews, Explosive Power, and Strength of Ten.  That's anywhere from a +2 to +6 on any strength related activity.  With a few refinements in crafting, your potion crafter will even be able to make it usable more often.  You can do similar things with evocation maneuvers - though they'll cost a stress point.  With appropriate aspects, you can do the same to any roll.

[Moriden]

Strength of the Deep Earth seems a bit unfair. There was a discussion about such spells on this forum a while ago, and the consensus was that they should either be disallowed or heavily restricted.

It's legal by the RAW, as far as I can tell, but that doesn't mean that everyone will (or even should) allow it.

I'm aware of the consensus, and with the notable exceptions of Biomancy and Summer Magic i probably agree with it. The op asked for examples of how it would work if he where to allow it though so that is what i provided. Personally i allow this kind of thing in my games, i did however design a city with multiple 40 refresh antagonists in it.

[arete]

I wouldn't say they're against the spirit of the rules.  However, most buffs can (and possibly should) be simulated by maneuver-created aspects.  A "strength potion" (or other buff) might give the drinker Mighty Thews, Explosive Power, and Strength of Ten.  That's anywhere from a +2 to +6 on any strength related activity.  With a few refinements in crafting, your potion crafter will even be able to make it usable more often.  You can do similar things with evocation maneuvers - though they'll cost a stress point.  With appropriate aspects, you can do the same to any roll.

It seems odd to handle biomancy with such a limited scope of mechanic.  After all it says you can do other things, and players are going to want to do other things.  I  did not think it was outside of the rules to get refresh based powers, and other options.  After playing with it I understand why refresh based powers are bad, but i think it would be a good idea to have more mechanical options outside of aspects.

A traditional Thaumaturgic Ward requires a solid Threshold to which it can bond, and a walking, stretching, fighting human is pretty unstable as a magical platform, especially passing over all sorts of other thresholds, passing by any number of mystical resonances which would disrupt an unstable Ward.

So for these buffs, perhaps we rule that a caster can only pack so much magical defense on a moving item, and use their Lore to determine the upper bound of what they can do to their own bodies without seriously having to Transform themselves, like with enchanted items/potions?

I think this has potential.

You hate buffing, yet you created this thread. There must be a story behind this.

Well I come from a group of gamers that are very analytical.  After playing a lot of other games, most notably D&D 3-3.XX, and exalted, we have become very use to clearly defined raw.

I went looking for a more open game, bought a bunch of indy games, and dresden has been the most appealing.  We have been having issues, because originally we sat down and just started playing.  Now as I learn more about the system I am finding more RAW.  It is problematic because originally we used summer magic to hand out mythic buffs.

[Drachasor]

Figuring out how to balance buffs well is tricky, I think.

I think the cost on generating aspects is about right for general purposes.  If you are making a magical item that gives you a couple aspects, then 3 shifts per non-sticky aspect you can tag once seems about right to me, give or take.  Of course, that's not explicitly in the rules for thaumaturgy, it's borrowing something from evocation to get a minimum shift-cost for navel-gazing maneuvers for thaumaturgy.

The evocation cost for shields and such looks about right too.

We don't have a good system for things like the item that lets you see through faerie illusions, unless we take the simple action for thaumaturgy actually mean the same, narrowly defined, simple action can be done over and over for the duration of a spell.  Then we have a system for that, and it can potentially work in isolation.

I don't think big rituals that last for a while is a bad thing per se either, certainly that seems like something that should be an option, but difficult.  If we consider a buff to normally last "a minute" or "a few moments" or "a few minutes" (maybe that's a scene), then extending it to last a lot longer wouldn't be easy.  So twiddling around with the base duration can fix a lot of stuff, I think, at least in most games.  (For instance, that makes the Strength of Deep Earth far, far more expensive for the same effect, as it should be, we're talking about well over 20 shifts needed).

Beyond that perhaps what needs to be considered is how magical effects stack and some other stuff.  Perhaps if you put up a big shield on yourself that lasts for days, it interferes with evocation shields as long as it is around (e.g. only one effect/spell of a given type at a time).  Perhaps it should be required for such things to give you a negative aspect that can be assessed and used against you (you are going around with a crazy amount of power on you).  Magical items would be exempt from such limitations, since they are crafted more carefully than any ritual can be.  This makes it so that you won't put low-level armor rituals on yourself, since it would interfere with blocks or the like you might do (except in more or less appropriate circumstances).

Though, seems to me like there needs to be some limit to how much power you can pour into a ritual, potentially.

Or another tactic might be to require fate points to keep some sort of long-term buff powered -- to reference the rules on borrowed abilities that require refresh.  While the starting bits of what I wrote above might seem complicated, I think figuring out some sort of fate point cost would be worse.  This tricky thing in all of this is keeping it as simple as possible.

[devonapple]

I think the cost on generating aspects is about right for general purposes.  If you are making a magical item that gives you a couple aspects, then 3 shifts per non-sticky aspect you can tag once seems about right to me, give or take.  Of course, that's not explicitly in the rules for thaumaturgy, it's borrowing something from evocation to get a minimum shift-cost for navel-gazing maneuvers for thaumaturgy.

Fear not: it already is in the Thaumaturgy rules, so it has RAW support:
YS 265: "If the intent is to create a temporary aspect that can be tagged more than once (remember that normally you’d only get the benefit of the tag once and have to invoke after that), simply chain two or more maneuvers together in the same spell, each inflicting the same aspect or a similar variant. In other words, if you want to take advantage of two tags against a target of Good Conviction, you’ll need to set up two maneuvers, for a minimum complexity of 6 (3 for each, as per above). As wizards are usually low on fate points, this option allows you a little more mileage without having to worry about impacting your fate point budget."

[Drachasor]

Fear not: it already is in the Thaumaturgy rules, so it has RAW support:
YS 265: "If the intent is to create a temporary aspect that can be tagged more than once (remember that normally you’d only get the benefit of the tag once and have to invoke after that), simply chain two or more maneuvers together in the same spell, each inflicting the same aspect or a similar variant. In other words, if you want to take advantage of two tags against a target of Good Conviction, you’ll need to set up two maneuvers, for a minimum complexity of 6 (3 for each, as per above). As wizards are usually low on fate points, this option allows you a little more mileage without having to worry about impacting your fate point budget."

They actually don't talk, in thaumaturgy, about navel-gazing maneuvers.  That section is explicitly talking about putting things on other people.  In general the difficulty of navel-gazing is glossed over; only evocation puts a solid number on it for evocation effects.  The thing is, with that example, someone not resisting the effect doesn't need to have their conviction overcome, they just let themselves get hit, so a 1 shift maneuver would work on them (potentially a 0-shift, but that's super-cheating).  This may seem like a pedantic point to you, but it is the case the rules really don't go over this well...you have to sort of slap different parts of them together (it does fit together well enough).