Breath Weapons

[devonapple]

As long as I can still juggle Regular or Mythic fireballs with my asbestos gloves, I'll be happy

[BumblingBear]

Strength powers should affect it, because otherwise it is pretty worthless for anything with a strength power.  Otherwise you've spent 2 refresh on a crappy pistol (shorter range) that you can hide really well (but that doesn't mean you always have access to it, bad guys can find a way to make sure you can't use it whether muzzling your mouth or whatever).  Sure, you can theoretically run out of ammo, but that almost never happens.  Overall that's garbage when a high strength character can just have a few throwing axes to lug around and they'll be weapon 2+strength bonuses (I believe a throwing axe would do more damage than a dagger).  Or they can pick up things on the scene and toss them due to their high strength (heck, isn't that hard to throw PEOPLE as weapons).  Heck, they'll pretty much get just as much mileage out of a bag of baseballs as they would a breath weapon (they can take those baseballs just about anywhere, and we could consider them weapon 0 as a base if we wanted) and that's just with INHUMAN strength.

For 2 refresh, it should scale with anything that increases weapon damage, otherwise it is a joke.  Heck, 2 refresh is pretty expensive as it is...I'm not entirely convinced it shouldn't be just 1 refresh.  (I'd say claws are similar and should be 0 refresh, except they give you an excellent weapon for the fist skill, which is pretty nice given some of the stunts available for fists).

Not everything in the game is supposed to be balanced.

Breath weapons IIRC were primarily an ability that NPCs used too.

I think the ability is fine as is.

Consider: A PC with high weapons, a stunt to use anything they pick up as a weapon, and breath weapon would basically never be without a weapon they could use to deadly effect.  Additionally, they'd be able to deal with opponents up close and farther away without missing a step.

[bitterpill]

Tecnically as breath weapon is a throwing Weapon the power already includes the strength bonus and is useable by all weapon powers involving throwing given what the core book says. So to not add the bonus is a house rule rather than the reverse.

[devonapple]

Tecnically as breath weapon is a throwing Weapon the power already includes the strength bonus and is useable by all weapon powers involving throwing given what the core book says. So to not add the bonus is a house rule rather than the reverse.

Well, yes, that's true, but so is me being able to juggle those Breath Weapon attacks using the Stunt I brought up earlier. Sometimes the rules don't make sense or contain an unintended error or consequence that needs to be resolved afterwards with an errata.

[MijRai]

Tecnically as breath weapon is a throwing Weapon the power already includes the strength bonus and is useable by all weapon powers involving throwing given what the core book says. So to not add the bonus is a house rule rather than the reverse.

Actually, the strength bonus to Weapons only applies to Weapons where strength makes a difference. Strength doesn't make a difference when breathing fire. As of YS 183 and 184:
"With attacks that depend on
muscular force (Fists, thrown Weapons, etc.),
you are at +_ to damage,"

If you are throwing icicles or flaming poo, you would get the strength bonus. If you are breathing fire or shooting lasers out of your eyes, the attack isn't reliant on muscular force, and as such shouldn't get the strength bonus.

[Drachasor]

Not everything in the game is supposed to be balanced.

No reason why it shouldn't be.

Breath weapons IIRC were primarily an ability that NPCs used too.

In the Books, sure, that's only because Dresden is a Wizard and didn't have any friends with a breath weapon.  There are plenty of ways that players can have access to them.

Consider: A PC with high weapons, a stunt to use anything they pick up as a weapon, and breath weapon would basically never be without a weapon they could use to deadly effect.  Additionally, they'd be able to deal with opponents up close and farther away without missing a step.

My reading of the rules is that someone with high weapons doesn't need any stunt that lets them use anything as a weapon.  They already can do that.  They can pick up a chair and use it as a weapon, if strong enough.  If strong enough, they can pick up a chair and THROW it as a weapon.  They could pick up a couch and throw it as a weapon.  If they get a lift of 15, they can pick up a CAR and throw it (doable with Supernatural Strength, Hulking Size, Might 5, and Mighty Thews...or you could have Mythic Strength and rearrange things a bit..well, 14 is technically good enough for a small car).  So again, someone with Inhuman Strength already has a breath weapon since they can toss baseballs (weapon 0, I'm saying, +2 for IS).  Easy for them to carry a bag of baseballs (and I'm talking about 100 or so baseballs here), and they can basically have it all the time.  If they get captured, the bag gets taken away.  If someone with a breath weapon gets captured, they get muzzled or otherwise constrained so that they can't use it.  Pretty much the same thing.  If they have Supernatural Strength or better, then the bag of baseballs or anything they can grab in the environment, is far better than a breath weapon.

Overall, Breath Weapon is questionable enough as a 2 refresh ability.  Not having it scale with Strength powers makes it pretty much a joke for any strong character who can literally grab anything near them and throw it to better effect.

[bitterpill]

If you wanted to be pedantic you could argue tha Breathing comes under strength as strength is muscluar force and so at the very least the strength of your blowing would come from Your Strength.

[Drachasor]

If you wanted to be pedantic you could argue tha Breathing comes under strength as strength is muscluar force and so at the very least the strength of your blowing would come from Your Strength.

I can be pretty pedantic!  Also, if your breath weapon is something you toss as a monkey demon or ice balls forming in your hand, then those logically are enhanced by strength.  It seems more fair to let players pick whatever aesthetics they want here, and let them all be affected by strength (again, not having it affected by strength makes it a dang pathetic weapon that costs a staggering 2 refresh....better to go with Supernatural Strength instead of Inhuman with a bag of baseballs than have Inhuman + Breath Weapon).  Honestly, the Breath Weapon pricing is a little much.

[sinker]

What I'm wondering Drachasor is what's going on in the games you're playing if you have to hit everything with a speeding mack truck on a regular basis? According to the rules Weapon:4 is the equivalent of high-explosives or getting hit by a semi, and shouldn't really be necessary most of the time. A weapon:2 that is ever present and also can be used for maneuvers or blocks is a fairly decent advantage. Yes it's not a car being thrown by someone with mythic strength but to be fair that's 6+ refresh (I say 6+ because technically a car is not a weapon and one would have a difficult time using it as one or might pick up a stunt for improvised weapons) and most of the time that much damage is ludicrous.

[Drachasor]

What I'm wondering Drachasor is what's going on in the games you're playing if you have to hit everything with a speeding mack truck on a regular basis? According to the rules Weapon:4 is the equivalent of high-explosives or getting hit by a semi, and shouldn't really be necessary most of the time. A weapon:2 that is ever present and also can be used for maneuvers or blocks is a fairly decent advantage. Yes it's not a car being thrown by someone with mythic strength but to be fair that's 6+ refresh (I say 6+ because technically a car is not a weapon and one would have a difficult time using it as one or might pick up a stunt for improvised weapons) and most of the time that much damage is ludicrous.

I was just emphasizing how easy it is for someone with a ton of strength to find a thrown weapon, I wasn't saying they should just stick to cars...otherwise every fight has to take place in a parking lot.  (And the rules explicitly if your lift is 6 higher than that required to lift the object, then you can use it as a thrown weapon, which is what I was basing this all off.  A couch or the like just requires a lift of 9 which is super-easy to get if you have supernatural strength -- just need a might of 3).  That means anything less heavy than a couch can be thrown as a weapon (people, computers, desks, books, televisions, etc).

I think my comparison of a guy with Supernatural Strength and a bag of baseballs vs. a guy with Inhuman Strength and a Breath Weapon demonstrate my point best though.  The former is much stronger, much better in melee, can use thrown baseballs for maneuvers, etc, and can basically take them anywhere (security wouldn't stop someone with a bag of baseballs, I don't believe).  The latter has paid the difference in refresh of strength to have something much like baseballs, but that in a very small set of circumstances is something they can still use.  Oh, and the Supernatural Strength guy ALSO has their baseballs as a weapon 4 or 5 attack (depending on whether baseballs are weapon 0 or 1).  A breath weapon is just ridiculously expensive for anyone with a Strength Power (and I'd argue it is probably ridiculously expensive in general).

[BumblingBear]

I was just emphasizing how easy it is for someone with a ton of strength to find a thrown weapon, I wasn't saying they should just stick to cars...otherwise every fight has to take place in a parking lot.  (And the rules explicitly if your lift is 6 higher than that required to lift the object, then you can use it as a thrown weapon, which is what I was basing this all off.  A couch or the like just requires a lift of 9 which is super-easy to get if you have supernatural strength -- just need a might of 3).  That means anything less heavy than a couch can be thrown as a weapon (people, computers, desks, books, televisions, etc).

I think my comparison of a guy with Supernatural Strength and a bag of baseballs vs. a guy with Inhuman Strength and a Breath Weapon demonstrate my point best though.  The former is much stronger, much better in melee, can use thrown baseballs for maneuvers, etc, and can basically take them anywhere (security wouldn't stop someone with a bag of baseballs, I don't believe).  The latter has paid the difference in refresh of strength to have something much like baseballs, but that in a very small set of circumstances is something they can still use.  Oh, and the Supernatural Strength guy ALSO has their baseballs as a weapon 4 or 5 attack (depending on whether baseballs are weapon 0 or 1).  A breath weapon is just ridiculously expensive for anyone with a Strength Power (and I'd argue it is probably ridiculously expensive in general).

I'm  not seeing your point here.

Unless someone with supernatural strength take breath weapons for flavor, they probably shouldn't get that skill anyway.

I'm really not seeing the problem here unless someone wants to munchkin out and be able to throw an unlimited supply of weapon: 2 with a supernatural strength modifier all the time.

[bitterpill]

The sort of Characters who would take breath Weapon are demonic Scions, Demons, Fae and Dragons considering a Strength augmentation would fall naturally into all of those templates is why the question has meaning, say a Dragon has claws and Mythic Strength (As dragons are epic) his casual strike would do 8 shifts of damage so why the heck would he ever use a Breath Weapon of Fire that does 2 damage.

[Drachasor]

I'm  not seeing your point here.

Unless someone with supernatural strength take breath weapons for flavor, they probably shouldn't get that skill anyway.

I'm really not seeing the problem here unless someone wants to munchkin out and be able to throw an unlimited supply of weapon: 2 with a supernatural strength modifier all the time.

How's it munchkin?  Really?  It's extremely expensive to do that, and for that same cost you could have far better means of doing damage "all the time".  They could just grab Mythic Strength and then toss anything near them at enemies...literally anything that wasn't nailed down would be a valid weapon for them.  A bag of baseballs would be easy enough for someone to carry around, though they could go with any number of other things that are even smaller (golf balls, small rocks, whatever).  They've spent TWO refresh to have something that's worse than the next level of strength.  Anyone actually being a munchkin would go with more strength, not a breath weapon any day of the week.

[Sanctaphrax]

Personally, I think Breath Weapon is slightly overpriced for most games. I'd say that it's more like a 1.5 refresh power than a 2 refresh one. (Yes, I know that they don't use decimals.)

There are some games where Breath Weapon would be great, though. Like one where you spend most of your time in places where weapons are strictly forbidden. As with everything, situation is important.

[BumblingBear]

Personally, I think Breath Weapon is slightly overpriced for most games. I'd say that it's more like a 1.5 refresh power than a 2 refresh one. (Yes, I know that they don't use decimals.)

There are some games where Breath Weapon would be great, though. Like one where you spend most of your time in places where weapons are strictly forbidden. As with everything, situation is important.

+1