Thaumaturgy to imbue bullets.

[BumblingBear]

So here is the question:

I have a character who is an emissary of power.  As such, he has the ability to cast thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation.

If I have read the rules right, these types of actions are cast much like an evocation but they have the staying power of a ritual.

I've been given the suggestion of using this ability to imbue bullets in a magazine with "of light" for each round, basically giving each round a +2 tag.

This is cool an all, but my question is.. how would that work?  How would the spell be cast and what would the complexity/cost be?

[Sanctaphrax]

I'd say that it's a simple, ordinary ritual (at evocation speed or not) with a complexity of 3 x the number of rounds enchanted. But the tags should probably expire after a scene or so regardless of the ritual's duration.

[arete]

I like the above ruling, but I thought it would be a different number shifts.  I would a stagnat diff of 4-6.  I generally say buffing is a diff of 2+ effect and in this case I would add +2 for targeting a zone.

[Sanctaphrax]

Wait a minute. Targeting a zone? Did I miss something?

Anyway, I said 3 shifts because that seems to be the accepted difficulty for a non-sticky aspect from evocation. But like you say, that might be a little cheap for thaumaturgy.

[BumblingBear]

Wait a minute. Targeting a zone? Did I miss something?

Anyway, I said 3 shifts because that seems to be the accepted difficulty for a non-sticky aspect from evocation. But like you say, that might be a little cheap for thaumaturgy.

Not at evocation speed it's not.

Even if you only wanted to imbue 5 bullets, that is 8 shifts.  That's no mean feat for lower level characters.

I was thinking of using this option more to imbue an ally's bullets, but at that sort of cost, I'd be better off just casting my own nukes.

Taking x mental stress just to give an ally an edge is not much of an advantage when I have such few mental stess to chew through without taking consequences.

[arete]

Wait a minute. Targeting a zone? Did I miss something?

Anyway, I said 3 shifts because that seems to be the accepted difficulty for a non-sticky aspect from evocation. But like you say, that might be a little cheap for thaumaturgy.

An evocation spell can target 20 people in a zone for 2shifts.  To make it viable to enchant the bullets it should be 4 to 6 shifts.  Otherwise it is not worth casting.  the mechanic as I see it should give 1 free tag costing fate for the rest of the uses, and allowing the bullets to meet the catch of sun light at 6 shifts.

[BumblingBear]

An evocation spell can target 20 people in a zone for 2shifts.  To make it viable to enchant the bullets it should be 4 to 6 shifts.  Otherwise it is not worth casting.  the mechanic as I see it should give 1 free tag costing fate for the rest of the uses, and allowing the bullets to meet the catch of sun light at 6 shifts.

This is kind of what I thought made the most sense mechanically and thematically.

I would think that a base cost of 5 would be appropriate.  3 for the effect and 2 for the whole magazine of bullets.

It makes no sense that I'd have to use 2 more shifts of power for every bullet when I can cast a curse at 20 people simultaneously for 2 more shifts.

[sinker]

Of note it might be easier to imbue the gun. Give the gun an aspect (at three shifts) of "fires sunlight rounds" or something and then it can be tagged once and invoked further. Or you can add additional versions of the same aspect (for three shifts each) and then it can be tagged multiple times. I think that'll be easier then putting an aspect on each individual bullet.

[arete]

Sinker I think you have a good idea.

[BumblingBear]

Of note it might be easier to imbue the gun. Give the gun an aspect (at three shifts) of "fires sunlight rounds" or something and then it can be tagged once and invoked further. Or you can add additional versions of the same aspect (for three shifts each) and then it can be tagged multiple times. I think that'll be easier then putting an aspect on each individual bullet.

What about 3 shifts for effect an 2 shifts for duration/multiple effects?

Whether the spell is cast on the gun or the bullets makes no difference to me. 

I guess that if my GM says that 3 shifts for effect and then 1 shift for every other shot, that would be cool too.

[arete]

I think you can argue it at an escalating shift value or a stagnat value.  I just like the set value because it compares better to the effects of blasting. 

[BumblingBear]

I think you can argue it at an escalating shift value or a stagnat value.  I just like the set value because it compares better to the effects of blasting. 

Not everything in the game has to be balanced though...

And I don't see how you figure.

Evocation attacks are far, far more powerful than most attacks this spell would create with guns.  The neat thing about it is the versatility for overcoming catches and the ability to potentially help out a comrade.

I have a lot of gunslingers in my group.  Passing out imbued weapons before attacking would be amazingly helpful.

[Tsunami]

To get multiple free tags from a thaumaturgy maneuver, you need to pile up aspects. This is done by adding copies of the same or very similar aspect.

YS:265

If the intent is to create a temporary aspect
that can be tagged more than once (remember
that normally you’d only get the benefit of the
tag once and have to invoke after that), simply
chain  two  or  more  maneuvers  together  in  the
same spell, each inflicting the same aspect or a
similar variant. In other words, if you want to
take  advantage  of  two  tags  against  a  target  of
Good  Conviction,  you’ll  need  to  set  up  two
maneuvers, for a minimum complexity of 6 (3
for each, as per above).

So, to enchant 5 Bullets (which really is nothing more than getting more free tags), you need 15 shifts.
Keep in mind that those aspects only stay for a limited amount of time. Without added duration, they'd be gone after 5 rounds. whether you use them or not.

So realistically you can enchant 2, maybe 3 bullets on the fly without to much trouble. Anything more would pose major problems at evocation speeds and methods.


Then again, you need to take hexing into account... putting magicked bullets into a fancy gun could get ugly.

[BumblingBear]

To get multiple free tags from a thaumaturgy maneuver, you need to pile up aspects. This is done by adding copies of the same or very similar aspect.

YS:265

If the intent is to create a temporary aspect
that can be tagged more than once (remember
that normally you’d only get the benefit of the
tag once and have to invoke after that), simply
chain  two  or  more  maneuvers  together  in  the
same spell, each inflicting the same aspect or a
similar variant. In other words, if you want to
take  advantage  of  two  tags  against  a  target  of
Good  Conviction,  you’ll  need  to  set  up  two
maneuvers, for a minimum complexity of 6 (3
for each, as per above).

So, to enchant 5 Bullets (which really is nothing more than getting more free tags), you need 15 shifts.
Keep in mind that those aspects only stay for a limited amount of time. Without added duration, they'd be gone after 5 rounds. whether you use them or not.

So realistically you can enchant 2, maybe 3 bullets on the fly without to much trouble. Anything more would pose major problems at evocation speeds and methods.


Then again, you need to take hexing into account... putting magicked bullets into a fancy gun could get ugly.

I guess I can't argue with the RAW.

These bullets would probably be used in a bolt action rifle or 1911.

I think the most I'd really attempt with my character on the fly right now would be 2 rounds.  He is fairly low level right now.  I guess that is not too terrible, though.  I could probably add another shift into it for added duration in an ally.

According to the thaumaturgy rules in YS though, if there is any doubt how long something will last the default is until sunrise... am I correct?

[Tsunami]

I guess I can't argue with the RAW.

These bullets would probably be used in a bolt action rifle or 1911.

I think the most I'd really attempt with my character on the fly right now would be 2 rounds.  He is fairly low level right now.  I guess that is not too terrible, though.  I could probably add another shift into it for added duration in an ally.

According to the thaumaturgy rules in YS though, if there is any doubt how long something will last the default is until sunrise... am I correct?

It's a bit of a judgement call. For some spells having shorter base durations makes sense. Some tracking spells for example.

In case of the bullets i thought making them fade was more appropriate. Especially when enchanted on the fly.
With 1 shift of duration i'd put them at one scene, and then go from there according to the time progression table.