Question about Protection Items (Evocation Blocks with multiple attackers)

[Wyrdrune]

Hello something got me wondering:

Let's say your wizard has a Ring of Protection with a Spirit Block 5 on it and let us assume that he has dedicated all his enchanted item slots to additional charges, so he has quite a lot of them.

A normal evocation block goes away when it is broken, but if it is not broken it stays the full exchange.

Now how do items do it?

Wizard is attacked, ring activates, using one charge, and let's say the block holds well against the attack.
Does the block hold the whole exchange or does it dissipate because it is an item with charges?

1. Frame the scene: 2 Ghouls attack our wizard
2. Establish groups: Ghouls vs wizard
3. Initiative: Both Ghouls get to act before the wizard does.
4. Begin first exchange.
4a. Ghoul 1 attacks wizard. Ring activates, uses a charge, block holds off attack.
4b. Ghoul 2 attacks wizard.

Here comes the question - the ring's shield - is it still up (until 5a when the ghoul who activated it is taking action and presuming ghoul 2 does not break the block) or is the charge spent and does it need to activate again, using a new charge?

4c. Wizard takes action.
5. Begin second exchange.
5a. Ghoul 1 takes action
...

Can someone clarify this a bit?

Thanks.

[BumblingBear]

I was under the impression that an equipment block (like an enchanted item) didn't work the same as a wizard block.

I was under the impression that it only works on one attack per charge and functions more like an evade than a standard evocation block.

IE the equipment shield softens the blow if the attack is greater than the block so to speak. 

Most blocks in the game do not work like standard evocation blocks.  Like... if you try to block a punch with fists, and miss it by one, your opponent will do 1 stress to you.

From what I understand, equipment blocks are the only thing you can use if someone catches you by surprise, OR you can use the equipment block instead of your athletics (or whatever) defense if it is lower than your equipment block and want to use up one of your charges.

[crusher_bob]

AFAIK, enchanted item blocks work just like regular evocation blocks:
You can defend against multiple attacks with a single use of the enchanted item, as long as the block isn't broken by one of the attacks.

And there's nothing really stopping you from, for example, using evocation to extend the duration of a block generated by your enchanted item, either.

As for duration, my assumption is that anything that has a duration that ends this turn ends when it's the enod of your action. 

--------

For example:
Ghoul and gunman attack a wizard.

Initiative order is:
Ghoul
Wizard
Gunman

The ghoul attacks the wizard.  The wizard uses an enchanted item to defend, completely blocking the ghoul's attack.

The wizard uses evocation to blast the ghoul.  At the end of his action, the block provided by his enchanted item expires.

The gunman attacks the wizard.  Since the wizards block has expired, he'd have to use another charge from his enchanted item to defend against it.  On the plus side, this use of the enchanted item will defend against the ghoul's attack during the next turn as well, since the wizard won't have gotten an action yet.

----------

I chose this way of doing duration so that the wizard will, in theory, always have the option of extending the spell duration when his action rolls around.  If effects ended during an 'end turn phase' then the action could look something like this:

Exchange 1:
wizard uses evocation to create a duration 1 block

'end phase' of Exchange 1:
wizard's block expires.

Exchange 2:
wizard wants to use an action to extend the duration of his block, but it's already expired!

[BumblingBear]

AFAIK, enchanted item blocks work just like regular evocation blocks:
You can defend against multiple attacks with a single use of the enchanted item, as long as the block isn't broken by one of the attacks.

And there's nothing really stopping you from, for example, using evocation to extend the duration of a block generated by your enchanted item, either.

As for duration, my assumption is that anything that has a duration that ends this turn ends when it's the enod of your action.  

--------

For example:
Ghoul and gunman attack a wizard.

Initiative order is:
Ghoul
Wizard
Gunman

The ghoul attacks the wizard.  The wizard uses an enchanted item to defend, completely blocking the ghoul's attack.

The wizard uses evocation to blast the ghoul.  At the end of his action, the block provided by his enchanted item expires.

The gunman attacks the wizard.  Since the wizards block has expired, he'd have to use another charge from his enchanted item to defend against it.  On the plus side, this use of the enchanted item will defend against the ghoul's attack during the next turn as well, since the wizard won't have gotten an action yet.

----------

I chose this way of doing duration so that the wizard will, in theory, always have the option of extending the spell duration when his action rolls around.  If effects ended during an 'end turn phase' then the action could look something like this:

Exchange 1:
wizard uses evocation to create a duration 1 block

'end phase' of Exchange 1:
wizard's block expires.

Exchange 2:
wizard wants to use an action to extend the duration of his block, but it's already expired!

As far as I know, this flies in the face of the RAW.

Allowing characters to do it this way could be a game breaker.

If wizards could call up a 6 shift block with an item and then extend it their next turn, that would be bypassing the mental stress that is normally caused by spellcasting.

So... I think you may be mistaken on this one.  

I may be wrong about how the block functions (I'm still pretty sure it counts as a normal block - not an evocation shield), I am sure that it's a one time only thing.  If it's functional for more than one attack, an item block would still end right before the wizard's next turn.

Allowing characters to get around the mental stress and chances of failure that come from spellcasting is silly.

Conceivably, a spellcaster with high lore but low conviction and discipline could make a badass shield item and then just put duration into it after it activates.

This would be shenanigans.

[crusher_bob]

They are paying at least a point of stress to extend the duration of the block, and are giving up their action.  Most combat speced wizards will have a rote block, so they don't have to risk a control on the block anyway.

[devonapple]

When you run out of charges on an enchanted item, you can add another charge for one mental stress. I don't think you can use Evocation to prolong an effect from an enchanted item.

I usually rule that the defense operates until just before the defender's next exchange, so it could be prolonged (if an evocation block); an enchanted item would work the same way (though not prolonged).

[Sanctaphrax]

I think that the block lasts a full exchange. Here's why:

1. All other blocks last at least a full exchange. Defences and blocks are not the same thing.
2. Enchanted Items are pretty much exactly like spellcasting in most ways. So the block's duration starts at one exchange and increases by one exchange for each shift invested in duration.

And yes, this does make shenanigans easy. The balance of crafting is questionable, and some people think that a character with nothing but Thaumaturgy or Ritual and a bunch of Refinements for crafting is unfair.

[tymire]

It's up to the players and gm to stop that (if they want too).  Really focus items can easily be abused also espically if you only focus on 1 element.  Making a wizard that can do 10+ shifts isn't too hard and what critter besides another wizard (who has a shield up) has defenses that high?  *Shrug* the game shouldn't be treated like dnd where it's almost required to do character op (imo at least). 

[Kommisar]

I created just such an enchantment based NPC villain for the game I am running.  He came from a very prominent White Council wizard family but never developed the ability to throw around evocations.  Making him the first in his line for generations to not serve as a Warden.  However, he is very smart, very disciplined and a heck of a Thaumaturge.  

Regardless of the history; he is a submerged level, 9-refresh character (still has one refresh left).  When you concentrate like that, yes, you can very nasty at what you do.  And he is.  Especially with a good, paranoid GM controlling him.  He is, though, not unstoppable or, in my opinion, broken.  He has his weaknesses.  Namely, he is no where near as flexible as the PC wizards.  Potions can give you some flexibility, but they are limited.

Right now, he knows more about the characters than they of him; so he has been able to control circumstances and keep the "Home Field Advantage", so to speak.  But, as soon as he looses this, he's in big trouble.  Making magic items takes time and effort.  Swapping out your slots is not something done over night.  Plus, items can be stolen or destroyed; all the easier to pull off as they are readily apparent for what they are by anyone with supernatural senses.

Crafters are not broken.  It just takes some intelligence to beat them, not just a good stat block or die rolls.

If your opponent learns what your items are and their capabilities... you are in a bad spot.

[sinker]

Most blocks in the game do not work like standard evocation blocks.  Like... if you try to block a punch with fists, and miss it by one, your opponent will do 1 stress to you.

Of note Bear this is how all blocks work (even evocation blocks). If someone breaks your block with an attack, they do however much stress that they broke it by to you (or the original target of the attack, since you could be blocking attacks to someone else).

[BumblingBear]

Of note Bear this is how all blocks work (even evocation blocks). If someone breaks your block with an attack, they do however much stress that they broke it by to you (or the original target of the attack, since you could be blocking attacks to someone else).

Thanks for the clarification.

It seems by consensus that I was wrong.  However, I am happy that I now have a complete grasp of the mechanics.

It looks like I was wrong and that an item can function as a wizard block.  ::Shrug:: who knew?

I guess that is good for non-evocation wizards. 

It's mechanics like this I am still weak on and learning about.  I need to spend this week (sigh) reading rules and getting more accustomed to them.

[bitterpill]

The most broken option for a focused enchanter is using an crafting focus item to boost both the strength and the  charges of enchanted items, I have checked that focus items can up the strength of enchanted items there is even an example in the book with an elf who uses a wand that  gives a +1 to potions (cuppas). What this means  for our game breaking enchanter is at 10 refresh you can have pretty much any effect 20-30 times a session at 10 shifts using a plus 5 enchanted items focus item and 5 lore. This makes you far more potent than most wizards who really have a limit of about 6, 10 shift effects every  battle and really without silly concequences a limit of about 10  10 shift effects a secession.  

[bitterpill]

Actually at 10 refresh if you allow the use of two focus items both at +5 one to control the other to frequency at item creation then you can get at total of 60 attack or blocks at 10 shifts of power, that is broken but relies upon carrying around 12 rings with you at all times or other assorted items.  This is limited to only 20 10 shift effects at 8 refresh.

As of note my GM stopped me playing this character and in my opinion he was quite right to do so, but if you have a liberal GM and want to 'cock a snook' this is the way to do it.

[sinker]

I think your math is off there bitterpill, but in a terrible way. If someone has a +5 to crafting frequency then each item has six uses, so with two refinements (giving you eight items) it's an additional 48 uses (plus four more in the base 20 uses).
The only downside to this character that sets the wizard apart is that this character has 12 things he can do per session (even if he can do them 72 times total). So he can dominate physical combat, but then things change and we're in social combat. Then we have to break into a place, then we're in a race, etc. These are all things that could be benefited by magic, however the crafter wouldn't be able to keep up. He would rather quickly run out of different things he could do, and suddenly all he has is his skill set (which isn't terrible likely) with no supernatural powers, stunts or even refresh to back it up. That would be a terrible character to play, just because it would be boring and difficult half the time and boring and easy the other half.

[BumblingBear]

The most broken option for a focused enchanter is using an crafting focus item to boost both the strength and the  charges of enchanted items, I have checked that focus items can up the strength of enchanted items there is even an example in the book with an elf who uses a wand that  gives a +1 to potions (cuppas). What this means  for our game breaking enchanter is at 10 refresh you can have pretty much any effect 20-30 times a session at 10 shifts using a plus 5 enchanted items focus item and 5 lore. This makes you far more potent than most wizards who really have a limit of about 6, 10 shift effects every  battle and really without silly concequences a limit of about 10  10 shift effects a secession.  

A really easy way to take care of this as a GM is to get the character arrested or captured etc. and have all their doodads taken away.

Or... a monster spits on them and they get slimed.  Oops!  The slime eats metal and they have to choose which of their rings got dissolved.

Etc.

The Vorpal Sword of Doom most powerful item in the game only does any good if the character actually has it.  Another way to deal with a character like that is to have lots and lots of vanilla mortals attack him.  Sure, he may last a long time with his powerful shields... but what's he gonna do when they're all gone?

If he fights back and kills with magic....

If he has a pistol, etc - with 10 shift shields going off back to back to back, a hexing compel would probably be appropriate too.