Sponsor debt (I can't believe I didn't notice this before)

[exploding_brain]

I was just re-reading the description of Sponsored Magic, and I realized I may have been messing up the application of sponsor debt this whole time.  The last paragraph on 288 says, in part, "Once per roll, you may invoke an aspect without spending a fate point. Doing so adds one to the debt between you and your sponsor."

I had always interpreted that as applying only to spell-casting rolls, sort of an alternative to taking backlash when you blow you control roll. But I think it's intended to refer to ANY roll, under any circumstances.

Anyone have any thoughts about that?

[devonapple]

My take would be that it was written in the context of describing Sponsored Magic, and therefore applies only to same. But I haven't been batting a thousand on my reading comprehension lately, so I'll let some other folks field that question.

[sinker]

I always figured that your sponsor could help on any roll. Especially since there are other specific rules for having your sponsor increase your spells anyway.

[TheMouse]

From context, I would take that to mean that it provides you the bonuses with magic.

[Nyarlathotep5150]

From context, I would take that to mean that it provides you the bonuses with magic.

   agreed. The section is describing sponsored magic and the once per roll in question is every roll to use sponsored magic. If they meant that you could use the benefit for non-magic rolls, they would have specifically explained that. 

[ducere1315]

Taken from the stories you could have it apply to any particular roll including those that aren't magic. I'm thinking of the non-magical times that a certain shadow helped Harry along. If I remember correctly there was discipline to control pain, a method to get out of the thorn manacles (athletics or endurance), translating ancient sumerian (scholarship) just to name a few... I would think that those examples would apply. Otherwise he would have got out of those situations using some other means...

[Bruce Coulson]

I would go with the sponsor being able to assist with any task...that aided the sponsor's agenda, and fit the sponsor's portfolio.  So, you can get a boost...but you're putting yourself further in debt, and it only works if it benefits the sponsor.  Double whammy.

And there might be occasions when the sponsor wants you to fail.

[devonapple]

There are definitely some good examples to support Sponsors assisting with rolls outside of casting spells.

How would this work with the "Internal Sponsor" ideas people are batting around on other threads?

[sinker]

Seems to me that's actually much easier to explain. I could see one having a hard time coming up with spontaneous knowledge (unless that was part of your concept, like "Son of Thoth"), but otherwise it's just the power manifesting in different ways.

[iago]

Email asked me to weigh in on the situational application of sponsor debt.

Sponsor debt is about using a magical conduit to an Entity of Power to pay costs you don't want to (in game terms, fate points and consequences, really). Whether or not that Power is willing to pay that cost for you depends on the terms of your "contract" as it were as represented by the agenda and how good you've been about paying off that debt.

This is primarily applicable to spell casting, but in my mind and at my table needn't be strictly sk on a case by case basis. But when coloring outside the lines like that, I'd say that taking on debt is an overtly magical act, perceivable by those who know how and what to look for. So sure, maybe you're having that Dragon pay a fate point so you can do better on your roll to appraise the value of a foe's assets.  But your foe's spider-sense will probably tingle when you do that.

Folks shouldn't use this as a carte blanche thing to cover all possible actions, tho. How far you can color outside the lines and in what ways (and with what skills) should be explicitly discussed and settled upon when you establish the sponsorship. Nor should it be a substitute for taking on additional appropriate stunts or powers if you're going to pursue a particular kind of ninspellcasting thing regularly. Buy the supernatural senses if you're going to be able to sniff out wealth regularly, Draco-boy.

At least that's how I'd roll with it.

[exploding_brain]

taking on debt is an overtly magical act

Ooh, I like that one. It sort of puts it back in the realm of oaths and promises, and the metaphysical oomph that they have for magical creatures, and lets the theme of the sponsored magic determine what circumstances are appropriate.  I think that's the bit that will give my group the leverage to figure out how to make this work for us.

The story examples are also very helpful.  Thanks everyone.

I think there would be cases where you can incur debt while doing something that might not quite be in line with your sponsor's agenda, provided you have the sort of relationship with your sponsor where you have the freedom to make those sorts of choices.  I bet the subsequent compel would be that much nastier though.

[iago]

It sort of puts it back in the realm of oaths and promises, and the metaphysical oomph that they have for magical creatures, and lets the theme of the sponsored magic determine what circumstances are appropriate.  I think that's the bit that will give my group the leverage to figure out how to make this work for us.

Exactly. That's the intent. Sponsored Magic is about the conduit; the caster isn't drawing power in from himself (most of the time -- the books seem to suggest that Soulfire has a bit of a eating-up-your-own-life-or-fate-or-something going on), he's grabbing it from the sponsor and using himself as a funnel, a lens, a hammer, powered by that. So if you're considering letting someone take a point of debt in order to invoke an aspect to get a boost on, I dunno, their Guns roll -- that boost is happening because the conduit is open, the power is flowing, and the Entity allowed it.