Sponsored Magic Confusion

[Ren]

So I'm reading thorough Sponsored Magic and I are confused.
How does the math work for purchasing it? It says that its the equivalent of taking Channeling or Ritual, but it acts like full on Evocation or Thaumaturgy? i.e. you can get either for (-2) each? with and additional (-1) for the Sponsored Source?
Also I saw something on the board that one cannot take refinements with Sponsored Magic. Is this true? If so is there a Page Reference for that? I see that the TYPE of Refinements purchased are limited.

Just trying to ease some of my confusion, thanks!

[ScottMcG]

With regard to the section of YS287 that you mention, my interpretation is that the *cost* (in this case of Seelie Magic) is stated as being similar to buying Channeling and Ritual standalone, but the effect is more like having Evocation and Thaumaturgy in that you aren't limited to one element or one type of thaumaturgy by default. In this case you trade the specialization bonus that comes along with Evocation and Thaumaturgy out for the benefits and additional limitations of Seelie Magic (sticking with magic that fits the theme/agenda of the sponsor).

Sponsored magic that had broader benefits and lesser limitations have a higher cost than Seelie/Unseelie magic.

That's my take on it after struggling with the same issues.

-S

So I'm reading thorough Sponsored Magic and I are confused.
How does the math work for purchasing it? It says that its the equivalent of taking Channeling or Ritual, but it acts like full on Evocation or Thaumaturgy? i.e. you can get either for (-2) each? with and additional (-1) for the Sponsored Source?
Also I saw something on the board that one cannot take refinements with Sponsored Magic. Is this true? If so is there a Page Reference for that? I see that the TYPE of Refinements purchased are limited.

Just trying to ease some of my confusion, thanks!

[sinker]

The reason why most people will tell you that you can't take refinements with sponsored magic is that sponsored magic is the equivalent of channeling and ritual but with a different focus. Since characters with channeling and ritual can only take refinements for focus item slots, then the reasoning is that the same applies to sponsored magic.

As for the cost it actually depends on the sponsor. Most cost 4 refresh (like channeling plus ritual) but others (soulfire in particular) cost a little more and there are also refunds if you already have a higher form of spellcasting (I.E. If you already have evocation or thaumaturgy it's a 1 point refund costing a total of 3 refresh for most sponsors, and it's a 2 point refund if you have both costing a total of 2 refresh for most sponsors).

[BumblingBear]

The reason why most people will tell you that you can't take refinements with sponsored magic is that sponsored magic is the equivalent of channeling and ritual but with a different focus. Since characters with channeling and ritual can only take refinements for focus item slots, then the reasoning is that the same applies to sponsored magic.

As for the cost it actually depends on the sponsor. Most cost 4 refresh (like channeling plus ritual) but others (soulfire in particular) cost a little more and there are also refunds if you already have a higher form of spellcasting (I.E. If you already have evocation or thaumaturgy it's a 1 point refund costing a total of 3 refresh for most sponsors, and it's a 2 point refund if you have both costing a total of 2 refresh for most sponsors).

Soulfire costs more because of it's hax against catches.

[Ren]

Okay so that is still confusing me...my read is that if you take Sponsored Magic + Channeling you essentially get Evocation for (-2) instead of (-3)
And same for Sponsored Magic + Ritual for Thaumaturgy.
Ah wait, I think I see what you are saying; if you already have Evocation and you buy Sponsored Magic; Rituals at (-2) you get Thaumaturgy without the specializations...? But the cost for the Sponsored Magic still works out to (-3) so why bother going that route when you could just get Thaumaturgy for (-3)?
The example further seems to say that if you have both Evocation and Thaumaturgy then getting a form of Sponsored Magic would be an additional point on the refund...I are very confused...
what is the cost if someone simply wants to get 2 Sponsored magics; one for Channeling/Evocation and 1 for Rituals/Thaumaturgy?

[devonapple]

But the cost for the Sponsored Magic still works out to (-3) so why bother going that route when you could just get Thaumaturgy for (-3)?

The advantage is that you can generally use your Sponsor's energy, among other things, to cast Thaumaturgy at the speed of Evocation, *if* your spells are furthering your Sponsor's agenda. I still need to study the section more, so /grain of salt/ but I believe it also means that you can rack up Sponsor Debt to cast spells *instead* of (or in addition to) using your own Mental Stress and Consequences - Sponsor Debt being one or more free Compels that the Sponsor can use against your spellcaster later on to force them to do things.

Soulfire seems a little different in this regard, but I definitely need to go through and make a little chart about how these things work so I can say for certainty./grain of salt/

And if you have full Thaumaturgy and Evocation already, Sponsored Magic is an added resource.

[ScottMcG]

I think it's best to talk about a particular package example of Sponsored Magic for concrete comparison of numbers.

So, If you already have Evocation, and you take Seelie Magic (a Sponsored Magic power) then you would get a 1 pt discount off of Seelie Magic (now costing you 3 pts instead of the normal 4). If you already have both Evocation and Thaumaturgy, then you get a 2 pt discount (1 for the pre-existing Evocation and 1 for the pre-existing Thaumaturgy) and the Seelie Magic power now costs you only 2.

The thing to keep in mind (at least as far as my understanding of sponsored magic goes) is that Sponsored Magic is not just generic packaging for Evocation/Channeling and Thaumaturgy/Rituals.  It represents getting magical power of some sort from a powerful patron.  An evocation from someone with straight-up Seelie Magic is not necessarily cast in the same way a human might cast an evocation from their inherent skill/power.  If your magic comes from Seelie Magic, then your castings are going to flavored toward the magic style and themes of the Summery fey.  I say this because it seems like you're asking "why bother with Seelie Magic when I can just buy Evocation and Thaumaturgy?" The answer to that is partly stylistic/flavor.  As a sponsored magic user you aren't a wizard, and you also have access to other benefits that someone with just Evocation and Thaumaturgy might not.  For example, a Seelie Magic user casting an evocation against a Frosty Winter Courty minion will be able to treat the target is if it had one level lower of toughness, acting as a partial Catch.  

Sponsored Magic gives you access to Evocation and Thaumaturgy-esque powers (mechanically indistinguishable), but has other effects as well, and these additional effects are different between the various sponsored magics.  Some Sponsored Magic is more powerful, and will therefore cost more refresh.  Compare Seelie Magic (4 pts) to Soulfire (5pts).

Okay so that is still confusing me...my read is that if you take Sponsored Magic + Channeling you essentially get Evocation for (-2) instead of (-3)
And same for Sponsored Magic + Ritual for Thaumaturgy.
Ah wait, I think I see what you are saying; if you already have Evocation and you buy Sponsored Magic; Rituals at (-2) you get Thaumaturgy without the specializations...? But the cost for the Sponsored Magic still works out to (-3) so why bother going that route when you could just get Thaumaturgy for (-3)?
The example further seems to say that if you have both Evocation and Thaumaturgy then getting a form of Sponsored Magic would be an additional point on the refund...I are very confused...
what is the cost if someone simply wants to get 2 Sponsored magics; one for Channeling/Evocation and 1 for Rituals/Thaumaturgy?

[sinker]

I still need to study the section more, so /grain of salt/ but I believe it also means that you can rack up Sponsor Debt to cast spells *instead* of (or in addition to) using your own Mental Stress and Consequences - Sponsor Debt being one or more free Compels that the Sponsor can use against your spellcaster later on to force them to do things.

Yes this is true. It's in a little sidebar entitled "the dark powers are always willing to help" though so a lot of people miss it.

In response to your post Ren, there is almost no reason to take sponsored magic + channeling or ritual. Sponsored magic IS Channeling and Ritual, with a few extra limitations (having a sponsor and all that entails) and a few extra benefits (mostly having extra specialties/elements and being able to supercharge your spells with your sponsor). The only reason I can think of to pick up channeling or ritual with sponsored magic is if you had winter as your sponsor and still wanted to be able to throw around heat (or similar).
As stated before sponsored magic costs 4 refresh (most of the time) which is the same cost as picking up channeling and ritual, however you can't pick up halves of it (I.E. no Sponsored magic: Ritual at least not by RAW). If you already have Thaumaturgy (or evocaton) then the cost for sponsored magic is reduced by 1 (I.E. you will have spent 3 on thaumaturgy and 3 on sponsored magic), if you have both thaumaturgy and evocation the cost is reduced by 2 (so you would have spent 3 on thaumaturgy, 3 on evocation and 2 on sponsored magic). The only reason you might do this is to have the benefits of sponsored magic (I.E. supercharging spells and gaining debt) or if you started with the sponsor and wanted a source of magic that didn't have the downsides (one big one being that you can't cast anything that goes against your sponsor's agenda).

[Ren]

Ah okay I think I see it now. I'm not trying to munchkin here in fact I'm asking so i understand the math one of my players is using to make sure it is correct. So let me see if I have this;

Sponsored Magic (-4) Gives Channeling and Rituals.
If one has Evocation or Thaumaturgy, but not both, then Sponsored Magic is (-3) for a total of (-6) cost.
With both Evocation and Thaumaturgy Sponsored Magic is (-2) for a total of (-8)? That's a LOT of expense but I guess it makes for a potent caster. On the other hand if you just take Sponsored Magic then you'd still be able to do spell casting but on a more limited but potentially more powerful basis.

[BumblingBear]

Ah okay I think I see it now. I'm not trying to munchkin here in fact I'm asking so i understand the math one of my players is using to make sure it is correct. So let me see if I have this;

Sponsored Magic (-4) Gives Channeling and Rituals.
If one has Evocation or Thaumaturgy, but not both, then Sponsored Magic is (-3) for a total of (-6) cost.
With both Evocation and Thaumaturgy Sponsored Magic is (-2) for a total of (-8)? That's a LOT of expense but I guess it makes for a potent caster. On the other hand if you just take Sponsored Magic then you'd still be able to do spell casting but on a more limited but potentially more powerful basis.

Indeed, but you would not be able to specialize.

You'd be limited to focus items only to boost one's power.

The biggest benefits for sponsored magic in my opinion are

A. Flavor

B. Power.  For 1 debt, a player can borrow 2 shifts of power from a sponsor

C.  Fate point borrowing.  RAW states that a PC can tag aspects without using a fatepoint at the cost of 1 sponsor debt.

The RAW are not clear on what exactly that means.  I take it to mean that (and this is just my understanding)

1.  If a PC gets above a certain amount of sponsor points (SPs), the patron can compel the character.  I take this to mean that the sponsor can influence (compel) the character to act more like the sponsor.  For instance, under the influence of /tons/ of hellfire casting, Harry started blowing things up whenever he got irritated - like outside Marcone's.

2.  The more SPs a PC incurs, the more attention the PC gets from the sponsor.  This can be either a good thing or a bad thing.  When Harry was using Hellfire, he got angry a lot.  When Harry started using soulfire all the time, he got visited by archangels more often and set on missions.

My biggest confusion is that the book does not make a direct correlation between fate points and sponsor points.  The RAW is not clear on this issue at all... so I think it is GM discretion.

Sponsored magic is not the most powerful character build by far.

I personally like it and built a character on it mainly because I see so many stories being spawned from it and it gives an element of flavor to the magical system.

I personally don't see a whole lot of use for sponsored thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation.  Maybe to make a quick circle or snap a quick tracking spell, but other than that I don't see how regular thaumaturgy is not as powerful or more powerful.

[bibliophile20]

I personally don't see a whole lot of use for sponsored thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation.  Maybe to make a quick circle or snap a quick tracking spell, but other than that I don't see how thaumaturgy is as powerful or more powerful.

Curses done in combat instead of over minutes/hours/days.  Forget long term family curses--hit em with a bad luck curse in the middle of battle and watch the environment turn against them. 

Conjured backup, en mass, as quick as you can cast.  To pull an example from anime, Naruto's signature move, Kage Bunshin No Jutsu. 

Emulating Supernatural Powers, like Gaseous Form, Toughness, Speed...

Mind magic--like Corpsetaker's whammy, or other mental attack--in the time to cast Fuego!

Or, if you're fond of playing with the Nevernever, doing a fair impression of Nightcrawler from the X-Men is certainly possible. 

And so forth.  Remember, Thaumaturgy is the nuke option for magic; if you have enough skill, and enough time, and enough creativity, you can achieve just about any effect.  Ebenezer pulled down a satellite with it; the Merlin conjured a ward that held off an army with it. 

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Harry wiped out the Red Court with it.

  And sponsored magic decreases the time and effort needed. 

[sinker]

Seems like you've got the cost down Ren. If you've really got a player looking at this I would really suggest that you carefully and thoroughly read the sponsored magic section including all of the sidebars. There's a lot of rules there and sponsored magic is one of the powers that really requires the most GM commitment to make it work.

Also if I'm not mistaken Bear, each point of debt incurred by a player is one free compel of that player. And bibliophile got to it first but the benefits of thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation are things like in-combat healing spells, summonings, conjurings, etc (which normally can't be done in combat at all).

[BumblingBear]

Seems like you've got the cost down Ren. If you've really got a player looking at this I would really suggest that you carefully and thoroughly read the sponsored magic section including all of the sidebars. There's a lot of rules there and sponsored magic is one of the powers that really requires the most GM commitment to make it work.

Also if I'm not mistaken Bear, each point of debt incurred by a player is one free compel of that player.

The nature of the compel is still in question, though.  For instance, a compel towards the character's emotions (like Harry getting angry) is one thing.
A compel to go take out the god-level enemy of the patron is quite another.

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During the final battle with shagnasty, Harry used everything he had - magic, fate points, sponsor soulfire, all of it.  If it worked 1-1 on sponsor compels, Harry would have been forced to go run a cathedral or something.

And bibliophile got to it first but the benefits of thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation are things like in-combat healing spells, summonings, conjurings, etc (which normally can't be done in combat at all).

Yes, but it still costs mental stress to cast and it's still done at the max evocation power levels of the caster.

Evocation speed thaumaturgy is cast using evocation rules.  That means that the sponsored mage won't be able to cast 15 shift spells.  AND they will still cause mental stress.  I don't see how it wouldn't be more efficient to just shoot force lightning or something in combat.

[sinker]

Speaking from experience I created a healing Rote for a soulfire sponsored caster. Seemed to work well (even if it was limited by my conviction), then again it was a core tenant for the character to sacrifice herself to help others, so it wasn't uncommon for my rotes to involve physical stress and consequences (as backlash) and she was a little beefier than most casters (great endurance).

As for debt the books are sometimes not great examples of the system, however Harry could still have quite a bit of debt in theory, or he may have dealt with it during the year in-between books. A sponsor compel can be towards anything that benefits the sponsor's agenda, and Harry generally does as much as he can to help (and protect) others. I'd say that counts toward the white god's agenda. A better question is (changes spoilers)

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what he's going to do about his deepening debt to mab.

[BumblingBear]

Speaking from experience I created a healing Rote for a soulfire sponsored caster. Seemed to work well (even if it was limited by my conviction), then again it was a core tenant for the character to sacrifice herself to help others, so it wasn't uncommon for my rotes to involve physical stress and consequences (as backlash) and she was a little beefier than most casters (great endurance).

As for debt the books are sometimes not great examples of the system, however Harry could still have quite a bit of debt in theory, or he may have dealt with it during the year in-between books. A sponsor compel can be towards anything that benefits the sponsor's agenda, and Harry generally does as much as he can to help (and protect) others. I'd say that counts toward the white god's agenda. A better question is (changes spoilers)

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what he's going to do about his deepening debt to mab.

Hmmm.  I don't think the books translate well to the RPG on this issue.