Guidelines: Water Thresholds

[devonapple]

Here is a rough guideline I developed on Water Thresholds based on multiple sources here on the boards:

Water Sources as Thresholds:
1-3: a shower, stream or shore, as well as most rainstorms you will ever face
4-5: a massive river, or a bay/inlet, or a tropical storm
6-7: deep ocean, or a waterspout
0:   Light rainshower
1:   Normal rain
1:   Shore (already counts as stepping in a significant water source)
2:   Stream (already counts as stepping in a significant water source)
2:   Heavy rainstorm
3:   Tropical storm
4:   Bay inlet
5:   Massive river; coastal ocean
6:   Waterspout
7:   Deep ocean

Situational Modifiers:
Being submerged, showered, or otherwise actively doused is +2 to the threshold.
Anything other than full immersion is +1 to the threshold.
Stagnant water is -1 or -2 to the threshold, but the threshold is always a minimum of 1.
+1:   Stepping in a significant water source
+2:   Partially submerged
+3:   Mostly submerged
+4:   Actively doused or fully submerged
-2:   Slow-moving water source
+2:   Cumulative difficulty for a spell effect that crosses a Zone within a body of water

And my compiled notes:
Running water "shorts out" magical energies that try to cross over or through it: imagine that the molecules of water erode away the "particles" of magic as they flow away.
Rain is running water and it erodes magic, making casting in a rainstorm extremely difficult.
Magic doesn't travel over/across bodies of water all that well, and acts as a zone border, acting as a free-standing block that sets a minimum difficulty level for the success of any affected supernatural actions.
Many spell effects and some supernatural abilities will erode or completely disappear if they are subjected to or carried across running water, losing a number of shifts of effectiveness equal to the strength of the threshold.
Stagnant, slow-moving water is less of a threshold than faster moving river water, for example, but never entirely 0.

[arete]

I like this work up.

[sinker]

The only thing I'm not sure of is large bodies of water. Dresden never seems to have an issue casting in/around lake Erie. I'm wondering if it counts as "Running water" but is instead considered "stagnant" or non-flowing. It's tough to find examples of large bodies of water as magical barriers, but I don't necessarily think that means they aren't.

[bibliophile20]

The only thing I'm not sure of is large bodies of water. Dresden never seems to have an issue casting in/around lake Erie.

You're quite right.  We've never seen him have any issues casting in/around Lake Erie.  However, since Chicago is next to Lake Michigan...    [/wiseass] 

However, we do see him have problems around running water.  In Small Favor, he explicitly says that conjuring light on the ride out to the island is more effort and trouble than its worth. 

(I'm wondering about the thresholds in the Shed Aquarium earlier in that book; there must have been alot of running water in there, yet he didn't really have too many problems)

[sinker]

Meh, geography was never my strong point.

However, we do see him have problems around running water.  In Small Favor, he explicitly says that conjuring light on the ride out to the island is more effort and trouble than its worth. 

This was the bit that I needed. I guess I just forgot about that part.

[Sitrein]

(I'm wondering about the thresholds in the Shed Aquarium earlier in that book; there must have been alot of running water in there, yet he
didn't really have too many problems)

I've been wondering about this too. My conclusion is that because the water was around him (not directly but within a few meters) but not under him or anything, it does't apply. It's like casting near a river but not being in the river.

However, as for casting over running water, this also begs a few questions such as "how close does it have to be?" or "do you need to be aware of the water in the first place, since magic is largely based on belief and all that?" The Main reason for my concern in this is things like natural underground waterways. In Turn Coat Dresden senses one and even interacts with it a little but there's not indication at all that it interferes with his magic in any way.

It's kind of like the question of whether or not a magic circle has a top. Can a being go high enough, skirting around the outside of a circle until the magic (or anti-magic, if you will) weakens and eventually dissipates, and then cross? Or what about below one? Different matter, true, but magic circles and water thresholds are very, very similar.

[devonapple]

It's kind of like the question of whether or not a magic circle has a top.

I've been wondering this myself!

[Sitrein]

I've been wondering this myself!

I know right? All the players in my group just say it goes up indefinitely but I just can't bring myself to believe that. It would also make the circle terribly vulnerable to birds/bats/etc flying through them without ever being near them or even really in sight of them.

[devonapple]

My off-the-cuff ruling would be that:
1. Thresholds on a building cover the building.
2. For Circles and anything based on a Circle, the coverage extends upwards maybe 4x the diameter, and down below the Earth about 1x the diameter, and appears like a bullet rounded off evenly at both ends. Circles shouldn't be an Acrobatics challenge or ignored by Flying creatures.
3. For the Water? Ai-ya ::rubs chin:: still thinking about that.

Mortal magic to transform water seems to work in the fiction. The caster may simply have to overcome the threshold strength of that body of water.

Mortal magic cast from one point above water to another point above that same body of water seems to work, but with a variable amount of difficulty. The caster may simply have to overcome the threshold strength of that body of water.

A spellcaster seems to be able to operate just as fine on one body of land as another: he does not lose some magic crossing through the water threshold and then even more crossing out somewhere else, so (unlike with a house Threshold) a Water Threshold is simply damping or grounding that energy until the spellcaster is no longer above/in that water.

Magic crossing from dry land to pass over water seems to be the sticking point - especially for supernatural creatures - and that can extend for several hundred feet at least: an extant example in the RPG is a de facto supernatural neutral ground set in a large bridge spanning an active river.

We aren't playing a superhero game, and death-defying aerial combats aren't really in genre, but that could be a reflection of the general geocentrism which permeates the universe (try to imagine the Nevernever of an alien world, the possibility of it linking with our own Nevernever, then wonder whether magic-savvy space aliens ever visit us, and you'll see how much your comprehension of the Dresdenverse relies on you not asking such questions). It seems silly to extend the threshold of water all the way into the vacuum of space, but do we want flying Demons and such to have a free pass over certain Thresholds?

[sinker]

2. For Circles and anything based on a Circle, the coverage extends upwards maybe 4x the diameter, and down below the Earth about 1x the diameter, and appears like a bullet rounded off evenly at both ends. Circles shouldn't be an Acrobatics challenge or ignored by Flying creatures.

The way I see this (from a rules/mechanics standpoint) is that circles effect supernatural stuff. They have no dimensions or limits, only a purpose. So if someone uses a circle to keep something imprisoned there's no tunneling under it or going over it, the purpose was to keep it imprisoned so in order to free itself it needs to overcome the circle. From a thematic standpoint I can see where you might want to play with dimensions, but this is one question that I have no issue answering with hand-wavery.

Mortal magic to transform water seems to work in the fiction. The caster may simply have to overcome the threshold strength of that body of water.

This is fairly easy to explain if we assume that the reason why running water erodes magic is because it's a conductor. If water hits the energy you are using to cast a spell then it draws some of that energy away, however if you're using that energy to move or manipulate water then that water is already suffused with that energy and is not going to further drain that energy. Does that make any sense? Can we go with that? Otherwise it seems silly to make it harder for anyone to manipulate an entire element.

It seems silly to extend the threshold of water all the way into the vacuum of space, but do we want flying Demons and such to have a free pass over certain Thresholds?

The above about circles could also apply here.

[devonapple]

The way I see this (from a rules/mechanics standpoint) is that circles effect supernatural stuff. They have no dimensions or limits, only a purpose. So if someone uses a circle to keep something imprisoned there's no tunneling under it or going over it, the purpose was to keep it imprisoned so in order to free itself it needs to overcome the circle.

I'm happy with it being that simple. And really, bugs and birds aren't really going to disrupt it by passing over it, are they?

This is fairly easy to explain if we assume that the reason why running water erodes magic is because it's a conductor. If water hits the energy you are using to cast a spell then it draws some of that energy away, however if you're using that energy to move or manipulate water then that water is already suffused with that energy and is not going to further drain that energy. Does that make any sense? Can we go with that? Otherwise it seems silly to make it harder for anyone to manipulate an entire element.

Of course. I actually have no problem with the concept of water manipulation. The RAW mentions it, and while a spellcaster may (or may not) be a weaker spellcaster when over water, I think he would still be able to manipulate it. It is, indeed, an official Element.

The above about circles could also apply here.

Excellent.

My own dog in this race is that I just ran my players through a scene in which the Outsider-summoning Villain lured them onto a Warded yacht. I ultimately want to know if a) warding a yacht is a cheesy move, b) but not if you are a bad guy with the right Sponsor for your magic, and c) would swamping the boat wear down that Ward?

[sjksprocket]

I'd say distance can matter. Magic is an energy. If you reason that water is eroding magic due to it drawing away magic like a conductor would electricity, distance and grounding are big factors. I'd say that the reason the waterways in the earth as well as the aquarium didn't effect Dresden was that he was magically grounded. There was a barrier between him and the water at the aquarium when he was casting spells, and a large amount of ground between him and the waterways. When on the lake though there is nothing but open air between him and the water as well as close proximity the water is able to draw some of the power from the spells.

[vultur]

A spellcaster seems to be able to operate just as fine on one body of land as another: he does not lose some magic crossing through the water threshold and then even more crossing out somewhere else, so (unlike with a house Threshold) a Water Threshold is simply damping or grounding that energy until the spellcaster is no longer above/in that water.

Yes. Water isn't really a threshold, you don't "lose" power by crossing over it once you're on the other side; it's just treated mechanically similar for game purposes (in the sense of being a block against magic). They're two completely different phenomena in-universe though.

 (try to imagine the Nevernever of an alien world, the possibility of it linking with our own Nevernever, then wonder whether magic-savvy space aliens ever visit us, and you'll see how much your comprehension of the Dresdenverse relies on you not asking such questions).

I don't see any essential problems with alien areas of the Nevernever; the Nevernever is way bigger than Earth, apparently infinite, and connections between physical-world and Nevernever space clearly aren't one-to-one (the distance you travel on an Nevernever Way has nothing to do with the physical distance -- and I *think* the type of being you are affects where in the NN you cross over to). I see no particular reason why really weird, 'distant' parts of the Nevernever couldn't connect to other planets -- not Faerie or the other 'earthlike' parts, but there are apparently some fairly strange and hostile areas in the NN.

As for aliens - Harry says many times that there are more weird critters around than you could learn in a lifetime; who says a couple couldn't have wandered in from other planets' Nevernever zones? How could you tell?

It seems silly to extend the threshold of water all the way into the vacuum of space, but do we want flying Demons and such to have a free pass over certain Thresholds?

IMO, thresholds - no; water - yes.

I don't see any essential problem in magical creatures flying over bodies of water; so long as they don't get near it it shouldn't affect them. I guess Harry is still affected on the boat in SmF because he's still "floating on" the water (though I'd imagine the effect is less than if he were actually swimming in the lake). As sjksprocket says, underground waterways are no big deal because you're standing on the ground. I think it's not *only* distance, there's also a mental/intent component - if you're "on the water", or in the water, (or casting across water) it matters, if you're dry and standing on dry ground but there's water flowing under the bedrock it doesn't. Same thing, I think, would apply if you're in an airplane flying over the Pacific (though then tech-hexing of the airplane would come into play!) -- you're not "on the water". Though I think physical distance probably does have some role too.

It's not an issue with thresholds in the home or church sense; going through the roof would still deal with the threshold (as would burrowing up from below) -- the threshold encloses the home space (or holy space), it's not 2-D.

Magic circles are the tricky part, and I'd agree with sinker: intent's important. If you draw a circle around a winged demon it can't just fly out, and you can draw a circle to protect yourself from flying summoned goons, but a dragon or whatever isn't suddenly going to fall out of the sky because it flew over the brass circle in Harry's lab.

[vultur]

Here is a rough guideline I developed on Water Thresholds based on multiple sources here on the boards:

Water Sources as Thresholds:
1-3: a shower, stream or shore, as well as most rainstorms you will ever face
4-5: a massive river, or a bay/inlet, or a tropical storm
6-7: deep ocean, or a waterspout

Situational Modifiers:
Being submerged, showered, or otherwise actively doused is +2 to the threshold.
Anything other than full immersion is +1 to the threshold.
Stagnant water is -1 or -2 to the threshold, but the threshold is always a minimum of 1.

Hmm. I think that doesn't scale enough (the difference between a rainstorm and a sea is too small). I don't think an ordinary heavy rainstorm should be a 4 level threshold if you're in it.

(Also, I thought stagnant water had no effect at all on magic, it had to be flowing.)

I think there's two different issues - casting across flowing water (while you're dry) and casting while in water. The first is easier; I'd say a tiny creek (a couple of feet wide and a couple of inches deep) would be an Average or Fair block; a stream ten or twelve feet wide and a couple of feet deep would be Good or Great; a normal river might be Superb or Fantastic; casting across the Mississippi would probably be a 10-shift threshold at the least.

A heavy rainstorm you're standing in should probably be about 2 shifts (a normal rain would be 1, a light shower do nothing), maaaybe 3 for really crazy Hawaiian-mountains-in-the-rainy-season rains. If you're actually in flowing water though, it should start at Great and go up quickly; in FM a relatively small actual volume of water cuts off Harry's magic.

[devonapple]

I don't see any essential problem in magical creatures flying over bodies of water; so long as they don't get near it it shouldn't affect them. I guess Harry is still affected on the boat in SmF because he's still "floating on" the water (though I'd imagine the effect is less than if he were actually swimming in the lake).

It's not an issue with thresholds in the home or church sense; going through the roof would still deal with the threshold (as would burrowing up from below) -- the threshold encloses the home space (or holy space), it's not 2-D.

I'm with you on the home Thresholds being 3-D, but I failed to make that explicit - my apologies for the confusion.

1) When Harry is on a small boat, I think we can conclude that he is still subject to at least some grounding because he is on something very thin which is on/in the water.

2) When Harry is on a houseboat, I suspect the ambient drain on his energy is minimal or nonexistent.

3) If Harry is on a giant tanker/battleship/etc., I would conclude that there is enough stuff between him and the water that I'd consider the ship to be the equivalent of dry land.

Which leaves the following questions:
With creatures flying over water - the limbo contest: "how low can you go? how low can you go?"

With spells cast above water to create effects which pass over that water: If distance drains the effect, what I see is this:

1) determine the initial Encounter Zone
2) determine the ambient Water Threshold value
3) set up Zone Borders in a radius around the initial encounter Zone
4) whenever a spell effect crosses a Zone Border, the Water Threshold is applied as a magical block against the spell

So let's say a Wizard is on a Yacht on the ocean (for purposes of this exercise, he suffers no Water Threshold penalty if he only casts spells within the Zone of the yacht - also "I'm on a Boat! I'm on a Boat!"). Far off in the distance his companions spy a boatload of enemies powering towards the Yacht. Wizard decides to nuke them from afar before they get a chance to attack with any firearms. GM determines that the enemies are about 6 zones away but closing fast. GM determines the local Water Threshold of this section of ocean to be about 7.

So to hit those enemies 6 zones away, the spellcaster would have to overcome about 245 shifts of Water Threshold to affect them.

Ouch. That seems a little much. Any suggestions?

Edit: I think maybe just assessing a flat +2 difficult to each Water Zone crossing will be enough. That brings the difficulty down to 7 plus six Zone borders at +2, resulting in a dampening effect of 17.