The wizard challenge!

[sinker]

I propose a challenge to the forum.
Statement: A creative wizard can do anything that anyone else can do using only his wizarding talents.
The challenge: Prove the statement wrong (or right) by naming a specific action that said wizard can't do. Then the rest of us will try to figure out how to do it. For the purpose of this argument the wizard has the sight, soulgaze, wizard's constitution, evocation, and thaumaturgy. The only frills being refinement to add the two missing elements to his repertoire (for maximum flexibility).

I'll start with the casing trapping of Burglary. Any takers?

[Tsunami]

Use Thaumaturgy to call the Spirit of Charles Peace, and have him give you pointers.

[riplikash]

Win X number of discrete, surprise fights in a row in a single encounter against minor to average henchman, where X in the number of fights a character focused on combat (guns of fists) could handle before being "Taken Out".

I've always held that in most systems a wizards weakness is stamina, but I would be interested to see if someone can prove this not true in DFRPG.

[Sanctaphrax]

That challenge seems a bit odd to me. A combat-focused supernatural character can take out an essentially infinite number of mooks if they attack one at a time. So the wizard has no chance. Unless by "surprise" you mean "ambush" in which case the wizard is in even worse trouble than the non-wizard.

If your point is that wizards aren't all powerful, consider it made. The thing about wizards is that they're really easy to optimize and very versatile. Just take a bunch of Refinement for evocation and there you go, you're great in a fight and competent outside of one.

Stamina is one of the major weaknesses of wizards in this game, since they can only cast four spells per scene before taking consequences. But that's only a problem if the scenes are long. In short fights, wizards are excellent.

[sinker]

I was speaking about specific actions (like my example of the burglary trapping, or how about the rapport skill). We all know that the wizard's weakness is the long haul (provided they aren't properly prepared). This was mostly about finding creative ways to solve problems with wizardry.

[devonapple]

I was speaking about specific actions (like my example of the burglary trapping, or how about the rapport skill). We all know that the wizard's weakness is the long haul (provided they aren't properly prepared). This was mostly about finding creative ways to solve problems with wizardry.

You may benefit from setting up explicit "Rules of the Challenge" for those who are only skimming (or disinclined to post to the spirit of the question).

[UmbraLux]

Win X number of discrete, surprise fights in a row in a single encounter against minor to average henchman, where X in the number of fights a character focused on combat (guns of fists) could handle before being "Taken Out".

I've always held that in most systems a wizards weakness is stamina, but I would be interested to see if someone can prove this not true in DFRPG.

There was a speculative thread on combat thaumaturgy some time ago.  It might answer your question...or just raise more questions. 

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Regarding other challenges, how about crafts?  Even something as simple as basketweaving would (I think) take an exorbitant number of thaumaturgy shifts to accomplish.  Is something as complex as building a car even in the realm of possibility?  For challenge purposes, both basket and car need to be permanent physical objects usable for their normal purposes.

[sinker]

Regarding other challenges, how about crafts?  Even something as simple as basketweaving would (I think) take an exorbitant number of thaumaturgy shifts to accomplish.  Is something as complex as building a car even in the realm of possibility?  For challenge purposes, both basket and car need to be permanent physical objects usable for their normal purposes.

Ooh, that's a good one. It's tough for a wizard to create anything lasting. I would think that you could do it with thaumaturgy but you're right it would take quite a bit of effort. Perhaps you could make short term repairs to a car or something with a relatively simple ritual (Presuming the magic doesn't hex whatever you're trying to fix). And as far as basketweaving I wonder if you could limit the complexity by actually starting with the right materials and just using magic to shape them (in which case you're just replacing the craft skill with your magic skills).

Win X number of discrete, surprise fights in a row in a single encounter against minor to average henchman, where X in the number of fights a character focused on combat (guns of fists) could handle before being "Taken Out".

I've always held that in most systems a wizards weakness is stamina, but I would be interested to see if someone can prove this not true in DFRPG.

Of note there's a trick to at least extending the wizard's stamina in combat (though it's definitely against the spirit of the rules even if it's technically legal). The Prolonging spells section on YS259 does say "Especially when the effect is a block or maneuver." It does not exclude attacks however, so a wizard could technically cast an attack spell and then take the next turn (and one additional stress) to extend it for 5-6 exchanges, giving them a 5-6 shift attack for that duration and only for two stress. I could see this as an elemental storm for a zone attack or maybe Dresden's "little ball of sunshine" that could be directed. Not something that I would allow were I the GM but technically not against the rules.

[devonapple]

Of note there's a trick to at least extending the wizard's stamina in combat (though it's definitely against the spirit of the rules even if it's technically legal). The Prolonging spells section on YS259 does say "Especially when the effect is a block or maneuver." It does not exclude attacks however, so a wizard could technically cast an attack spell and then take the next turn (and one additional stress) to extend it for 5-6 exchanges, giving them a 5-6 shift attack for that duration and only for two stress. I could see this as an elemental storm for a zone attack or maybe Dresden's "little ball of sunshine" that could be directed. Not something that I would allow were I the GM but technically not against the rules.

The problem is that attacks are instantaneous, and something has to already HAVE a duration in order to be extended. Extending attack spells has, by precedent on the boards, been deemed against the rules, by dint of implication.

[sinker]

Actually attacks are assumed to be instantaneous due to their thematic nature (A quick bolt of lightning, a blast of force). Nowhere in the RAW does it say that evocation attacks couldn't be slower, more insidious. I have made a couple of examples of possible slower attacks above and could make many more I'm sure (plants attacking continuously, earthquakes, wielding a stone, acid). I have been a rules-lawyer for entirely too long (regardless of my attempts otherwise) to not know how to twist the rules.

This is all intellectual however because as I said earlier this is not something I would allow were I GMing. I feel it's against the spirit of the rules even if the rules never specifically prohibit it.

[toturi]

The problem is that attacks are instantaneous, and something has to already HAVE a duration in order to be extended. Extending attack spells has, by precedent on the boards, been deemed against the rules, by dint of implication.

Which is actually an artifact of the "group think" on the boards which seems prevalent. In fact, by dint of implication, extending attack spells should be deemed within the rules instead of against them.

[Richard_Chilton]

I don't have the chart handy, but isn't "instant" the first level on the duration chart?

During the battle at the depths, Harry did an "instant" and added enough steps of duration to make that fire attack (attacking those squares) last.  I don't think that the fire bit could be considered a block because it hurt the things trying to get past it.

Richard

[devonapple]

During the battle at the depths, Harry did an "instant" and added enough steps of duration to make that fire attack (attacking those squares) last.  I don't think that the fire bit could be considered a block because it hurt the things trying to get past it.
[/quote]

That could also have been placing and extending a Scene Aspect using a Maneuver, and then spending some Fate Points, but yes, there are times when the fiction and the rules don't meet up very neatly.

[Richard_Chilton]

My motto is if it's cool and it's from the books you can try it...

But it has to be in a book, not sort of something that you can kind of remember that lets you destroy everything in your path.

As for the scene in White Night, it fits within the magic system.  The guy who put it together checked every published instant of magic (up to the end of Small Favors) and proved that his system could handle them all.  (I read that in a blog post.)

Richard

[devonapple]

I would really love to confirm whether or not attack spells can be extended. I agree that there can be many justifications for it, and I can make some compelling ones myself, but in the interest of balance, I do not.

There was a thread awhile back in which a caster wanted to be able to give himself flaming hands as a melee weapon for several exchanges, but the dominant understanding that attack spells can't be prolonged that way meant that we were grasping for workarounds, like making the player buy the Claws power (and of course Human Guide, because Claws are an obviously inhuman feature).

The potential issue with the Discipline checks: obviously you need to cast it successfully once to be able to prolong it. But maintaining the same Discipline check for all subsequent rounds in order to hit opponents doesn't sound right.

Maybe it would work like this:
Exchange 1: Player casts the attack spell, and his Discipline check is enough to cast the spell.
Regardless of whether or not the target escapes damage with a high Athletics check, the spell was successfully cast - it just remains to be seen whether it misses or hits, and how well.
Some GMs may insist that the player add in a shift of duration to "hold" the spell energy long enough to prolong it the next exchange.

Exchange 2: Player spends the round gathering more shifts of power and "casting" the attack spell again to prolong it a few more Exchanges. Makes the Discipline check to prolong the spell per the normal rules. Player may opt to narrate a Street Fighter "Hadoken" powerup sequence.

Exchange 3: Player makes another Discipline check, but only to hit the next target, not to successfully cast the spell.