How do i build constructs?

[Abd al Rahman]

Hello,

I am preparing my first session DFRPG and there is something I don't understand.

How do I (well, my PCs and NPCs) build a construct? I am pretty sure, that taumathurgie is the way to go, but how do I calculate the power costs for the ritual?

An excample: How did Victor Sells build his scorpions? How much power did it need? How do I differenciate between the diffrent types of construct (spell/magic driven, AI ...)

Thank you for your help

[Drashna]

The "Our World" book has a bit on that.  But basically, create the shell, and summon the spirit.  Basically the same as summoning zombies (which is in the "Your Story" book).  Problem is, that you basically have to bind a spirit, which is a borderline Law violation.  Probably why it's not talked about.

[sinker]

That's actually a really good question. As far as I can tell the summoning and binding has everything to do with the spirit's conviction, but in every example of a construct, regardless of the amount of refresh required the construct has a mediocre conviction. So it would be the same complexity to summon casius's snakes (2 refresh) than to summon a wardhound (9 refresh). So when making a construct how do we determine complexity/shifts to refresh?

[Abd al Rahman]

@Drashna

Spirit or demon based constructs are not my biggest problem. AI based are causing much more trouble for me

@sinker

Good to know that there is really no rule

My thoughts are:

2 or 4 shifts required per 1 point refresh cost, 1 or 2 shifts per stunt and skill point.

[crusher_bob]

I'd recommend charge more for skills based on the highest skill, rather than on the total.

Consider the following 2 contructs:

Rover
Rover had been with Wizard Bob since he'd been a kid; but dagnabbit, dawgs wear our much faster than wizards do.  So Bob bent several of the laws of magic to make Rover a new body that would last much longer.
Skills:
Good: Alertness, Athletics
Fair: Empathy, Fists, Intimidate, Survival
Average: Conviction, Discipline, Presence, Rapport, Survival

Powers:
ClawsTeeth (-1)
Inhuman Speed (-2)
Echoes of the Beast (-1)

So Rover has 19 points in skills, and 4 points of powers.  That would make him something like a 31 (at points of complexity for powers, and 1 point of complexity for skills) point construct.

----------------

Da terracotta AK carrier

Da wizard want to make construct to crush da enemies, da?

So we have:
Inhuman speed (-2)
Inhuman toughness (-2)
some catch (+1)

Stunt: the one that gives +1 to attack when using an AK series rifle.

Skills:
Great: Guns, Athletics
Good: Fists, Endurance
Fair: Alertness, Stealth
Fair: Might, ?

So our cost is:
Powers 3 x 3 = 9
Stunts 1 x 2 = 2
Skills 20

Total = 31

And around $500 to get an AK series rifle and a huge pile of ammo to shoot with it.

----------

So we could have a dog as a 31 point construct, or a murderous gun toting construct with superb attacks and defenses as a 31 point construct.

[sinker]

So our cost is:
Powers 3 x 3 = 9
Stunts 1 x 2 = 2
Skills 20

Total = 31

Of note where are you getting these costs from? At this point the seem like arbitrary (although fair seeming) numbers.

[devonapple]

Of note where are you getting these costs from? At this point the seem like arbitrary (although fair seeming) numbers.

From the thoughts of Abd al Rahman above. All of these costs are conjecture.

Coming from the other direction, DFRPG seems to suggest using Summoning as a Thaumaturgically enhanced Contacts check, which would obligate the GM to figure out a target number and then simply have the spellcaster meet it.

From the liner notes on YS 273: "Harry, I didn’t put guidelines here for stats of summoned creatures. It seems to me that on the low end, summoning is just about using your spellcraft to make a really good Contacts roll. Up from that, it’s about extending an invitation and seeing what comes knocking. And the thing that knocks could be all over the map in terms of power level."

[sinker]

Ahh, I totally missed that.

I do like the idea of the GM grabbing something based (loosely) on what you were trying to accomplish, but it doesn't really give the caster any sort of reliability (unless they can get a line on something specific I.E. a true name or similar)

[devonapple]

...it doesn't really give the caster any sort of reliability (unless they can get a line on something specific I.E. a true name or similar)

Some of the things GMs could give to a villain/antagonist, such as absolutely reliable summoning of Nevernever thugs, make for an interesting challenge for the players to overcome, but nevertheless require some effort to balance when being handed to a player. Especially since players are generally not holding a Bestiary of Summoning from which to pick and choose and balance.

[Ren]

This is a good question, I have to figure out how to create a Golem for my upcoming campaign.

[Morfedel]

As much as I love the DFRPG, there are a lot of unanswered "how do I" questions, of which this is one. Binder, for instance, has a whole army of summoned thugs, we have the animated scorpion construct, and all kinds of things with zero guidelines for how to stat them if a PC wants to pull a thing off such as that.

Do the creators of the game ever participate in discussions here?

Anyway, point being, there are no real guidelines for how to stat out a power that creates a construct, so you're on your own I'm afraid. Well, aside from home-brewed advice from us

[Morfedel]

As much as I love the DFRPG, there are a lot of unanswered "how do I" questions, of which this is one. Binder, for instance, has a whole army of summoned thugs, we have the animated scorpion construct, and all kinds of things with zero guidelines for how to stat them if a PC wants to pull a thing off such as that.

Do the creators of the game ever participate in discussions here?

Anyway, point being, there are no real guidelines for how to stat out a power that creates a construct, so you're on your own I'm afraid. Well, aside from home-brewed advice from us

Wow, this has really begun to irritate me. How does a pc build a Victor Sells scorpion, a ward hound, or a Cassius' Snakes spell? I heard that one of the game creators said on a blog he could do just about anything from the books with the game, but I just can't see how a few things,.particularly constructs, can be done without a LOT of handwaving.

I don't mind a little handwaving, but this subject has way too many unanswered questions I'm my mind. And it seems that, unlike many game forums, getting anything like an official answer here just isn't going to happen. Very disappointing. 

[UmbraLux]

I don't mind a little handwaving, but this subject has way too many unanswered questions I'm my mind.

DFRPG, and FATE in general, utilize GM & player input a lot.  Many things are left open ended, presumably on purpose.  This encourages creativity and ensures there is no "one true way".  Personally, I like that.

[sinker]

I don't know. I've been gaming for a long time so I don't mind thinking creatively and coming up with a solution that works well for me (for that matter I do that even when there is "one true way"), but sometimes DFRPG feels like they just forgot bits. I wouldn't have minded if they would have actually addressed it and said "There are many ways to do this like X and Y and Z. Find the one that works for you." but instead they just completely left any mention of how to do it out.

[devonapple]

DFRPG, and FATE in general, utilize GM & player input a lot.  Many things are left open ended, presumably on purpose.  This encourages creativity and ensures there is no "one true way".  Personally, I like that.

There's always HERO system if people want exact point-buy requirements.

I'm fine with some amount of player/GM collaboration on world creation and balancing some things against others, but these sections could still use a WEE bit more example/explication/guidance.