Hero vs. Heroine

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

What I don't like is when someone, not so frequent now, does a action type fantasy heroine that is obviously just a guy in a girl suit.
A strong woman does NOT have to be a , pardon the crudity, a ball less guy.

So, precisely what constitutes a guy in a girl suit ?

I hate, with a passion, stories that assume that some small subculture-specific set of gender roles are universals.

I picked a female POV for the current space-opera project because it felt easier to get in the ways that setting really is gender-egalitarian; a male character thinking so risks failing as being blind to ways in which it's not.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

deleted

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Anyone else reading MLN Hanover's Black Sun's Daughter series ?  Third book is just out of a projected ten, and having done the inital setup it's becoming clear that there's something really interesting being done there with ways for a female character to be strong without being weaponised or an orgiast.

[Paynesgrey]

I agree with you N86 - why can't a woman achieve something with more than just sex.  Sigh.
Because I'd heard just this complaint about the Anita Blake tales - I've never gotten into them.
Would just irritate me.

Another thing, which JB does so well - is when he's doing a wise-assed, smart mouthed woman she's just that - a smart ass like Harry.  Too many authors and people who do TV scripts when they write a smart assed woman she turns out to be bitchy not mouthy - and there is a great and obvious deference between the two.

Lois McMaster Bujold's Cordelia Vorkosigan is a prime example of how to write a smartass, smartmouth and strong woman who isn't just bitchyness disguised as those qualities.  Joss Whedon's brought a number of those to us well.  Small wonder Jim enjoys both. 

[Paynesgrey]

It sucks when what sells isn't what's really good.

That I can raise a glass to.   

Although, to find a pony in the pooh, consider all the grist milled vampire books to be a gateway drug to the Good Stuff, introducing and leading a few more young minds to Dresdenoholism....

[Snowleopard]

So, precisely what constitutes a guy in a girl suit ?

I hate, with a passion, stories that assume that some small subculture-specific set of gender roles are universals.

I picked a female POV for the current space-opera project because it felt easier to get in the ways that setting really is gender-egalitarian; a male character thinking so risks failing as being blind to ways in which it's not.

Hey, Neuro, good to see you back.  A guy in a girl suit is some writer basically taking a male character and putting a female skin on it.  The character acts like a male, thinks like a male, has the same strengths as a male, even is gross like some males but it's supposed to be female.  You don't find so many of them now but in the past you'd run across them more.  Put that character up against a true female character and you can see the difference immediately.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Hey, Neuro, good to see you back.  A guy in a girl suit is some writer basically taking a male character and putting a female skin on it.  The character acts like a male, thinks like a male, has the same strengths as a male,

I thought you meant something like that, I am just at a loss as to what counts as acting or thinking like a male in this context.

[Snowleopard]

Okay, let me see if I can clarify.  Usually the guy in a girl suit is done with female warriors.
A GiGS female warrior would charge blindly at a foe way bigger than she was and, because she's the heroine, manage to defeat said warrior without getting her ass kicked.  A true female warrior would be way more wary of a bigger foe because she knows she can't take him on in brute strength - she has to use her head and any other resources.

A good one, if you saw the Conan movie with Red Sonja in it - when she, Conan, and his buddy are about the rob some tower.
She looks at the boys and says "Do you know what horrors lurk above?"  When the boys basically signal no.
RS - "Then you go first!"  And they do.

It's a mind set difference.  It can be a bit stereotyped, but there is a difference in how men and women act and behave in certain circumstances.  Look at Murphy, she's been trained in martial arts but she still knows to be wary of a bigger foe.  Where as Kincaid is pretty much capable of running down a foe his size or bigger.  (Discounting supernatural abilities)

[LizW65]

I'm female and have been told I think like a man--most likely because I'm low-maintenance, take people at face value, and don't get all offended by bodily functions--but I have to say, I don't tend to think of those traits as specifically male, or atypical of women in general.
There are a few practical things that need to be kept in mind when writing about the sexes, such as differences in plumbing, upper body strength, dress(possibly), and so on, but I think the most important thing is to focus on the character's voice and what (s)he wants and is trying to accomplish in the story, rather than getting hung up on gender roles.

[Nickeris86]

Its also good to think about the type of society that the characters come from. Sparta trained both its men and women to fight and while the men were considered superior in a lot of ways but they still acknowledged the strengths that women posses. However in the opposite cultural spectrum Amazons were essentially men with a breast (traditionally Amazons cut off one of their breasts to be able to shoot a bow better) and their men were complete wusses.

[Snowleopard]

I'm female and have been told I think like a man--most likely because I'm low-maintenance, take people at face value, and don't get all offended by bodily functions--but I have to say, I don't tend to think of those traits as specifically male, or atypical of women in general.
There are a few practical things that need to be kept in mind when writing about the sexes, such as differences in plumbing, upper body strength, dress(possibly), and so on, but I think the most important thing is to focus on the character's voice and what (s)he wants and is trying to accomplish in the story, rather than getting hung up on gender roles.

It isn't so much getting caught up in gender roles as the GiGS characters don't 'read' right - they don't seem believable.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

It isn't so much getting caught up in gender roles as the GiGS characters don't 'read' right - they don't seem believable.

I've read plenty of characters who didn't feel believable to me as human beings; I can't recall one who felt like they would be a believable male human being but were actually being presented as female, or indeed vice versa.

[Snowleopard]

I've read plenty of characters who didn't feel believable to me as human beings; I can't recall one who felt like they would be a believable male human being but were actually being presented as female, or indeed vice versa.

They don't occur much anymore, Neuro, the writers have gotten smarter and probably gotten yelled at by both readers and editors.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

They don't occur much anymore, Neuro, the writers have gotten smarter and probably gotten yelled at by both readers and editors.

I think I might still find this easier if you could point me at a specific example, because I can't recall one in older fiction any more than in contemporary.

[Snowleopard]

I think I might still find this easier if you could point me at a specific example, because I can't recall one in older fiction any more than in contemporary.

I'll have to think on it, Neuro.  I suspect that most of that kind of example has not been reprinted or has gone out of print.