Author Topic: Adapting Rules from Other FATE Games  (Read 10478 times)

Offline Amseriah

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Re: Adapting Rules from Other FATE Games
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2011, 08:24:24 PM »
I wondered about how to deal with that as well.  Oh and the conversion from fp to advantage points is in the section about buying advantage points with fp, in the character creation section I think

Offline TheMouse

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Re: Adapting Rules from Other FATE Games
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2011, 09:32:53 PM »
Cool - if you happened to know the page reference where it says that, I'd appreciate the help. I'm going back and forth between sections rather than plumbing through from beginning to end, and I have yet to find the section you mention.

In the text box on page 24.

As for that balance... in DFRPG, Wings is a 1-Refresh power, but clumsy Flight in SoF costs 3 Advantage Points, and I suspect it would need an upgrade to become more comparable to its DFRPG equivalent. But that's all I've got so far.

I think it's a matter of Mike thinking that flight is a bigger impact than the crew at Evil Hat.

To provide a counter example, 2 points of armour that are always on only costs 3 AP. Adding 4 HLs costs another 4, for a total of 7 AP. Getting that in DF (ie Supernatural Toughness) costs 4 Refresh. That's pretty close to a 3:2 ratio.

This is why converting between the two is problematic. The people writing them had different goals and expectations. Some things will match closely, others will not, and it'll be pretty random which is which. Rather than trying to come up with a formula or set of hard rules to convert between the two, you're probably better off taking Strands as inspiration, then using the guidelines in Dresden to build the power.

Offline devonapple

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Re: Adapting Rules from Other FATE Games
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2011, 09:38:44 PM »
This is why converting between the two is problematic. The people writing them had different goals and expectations. Some things will match closely, others will not, and it'll be pretty random which is which. Rather than trying to come up with a formula or set of hard rules to convert between the two, you're probably better off taking Strands as inspiration, then using the guidelines in Dresden to build the power.

Indeed. As it is, DFRPG was tweaked from previous FATE offerings to make conflicts a little more brutal. Hopefully the existing DFRPG powers list will serve as sufficient guidance for assessing new powers built in SoF.
"Like a voice, like a crack, like a whispering shriek
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That I’m positive are not even mine"

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Offline eberg

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Re: Adapting Rules from Other FATE Games
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2011, 06:56:25 PM »
Hey, if you are willing, I would like to hear more about these!

1) Allowing a free tag on an aspect to be a compel instead of an invoke.
2) Limiting non-free aspect invocations to one per context (personal, scene, zone, etc).
3) The entire social combat system, which I'm going to use for a trial in my Dresden Files game.
#1 is simple, if you do a Declaration, Maneuver, or inflict a Consequence that gives you a free tag on the attendant aspect, you can use it to compel the subject instead of just getting the invoke bonuses. I like this especially for Consequences, because it allows for situations like using a free tag to compel someone to stay put after you put a "Broken Leg" consequence on them.

#2 just disallows invoking multiple aspects in the same context for the same roll. So, you can't invoke two of your personal aspect but you could invoke one of your personal aspects, a scene aspect, and an aspect on the zone. This helps to keep potential roll results down.

#3 is a bit involved to explain at length, but in a nutshell it involves using abstract zone maps and often abstract participants to handle conflict resolution. Players on the board can be individual characters, groups of characters (with composite scores), or abstract concepts or variables.

So, for example, in the trial I am running there is a line of six zones: three guilty, three undecided, and three innocent. There are three participants on the map: prosecutor, defender, and jury. Each stage of the trial is an exchange (opening statement, each witness, closing statement) during which the lawyers affect the position of the jury, trying to "move" them in to the position they want. The final position will determine the verdict and how long it takes to render (all the way at the guilty end will get you a guilt verdict in an afternoon, in the first innocent box will get you a not guilty verdict in a few days). I'm keeping it simple because this is my first go at it, but I could also have the witnesses on the map, with their guilt or innocence showing the jury's opinion of their trustworthiness.

Another example I loved was on one of the Diaspora boards and involved a target-shaped map with KILL at the center and FOILED in the outer ring to do an assassination. The target and assassin are on the map as are the variables Secrecy, Means, and Opportunity. Each participants wants to get the other as well as two of the variables into the appropriate position. If the assassin, secrecy, and means are in FOILED, the assassin's cover is blown and his tools are discovered or captured. If the target, means, and opportunity are in KILL, the target is taken out, but not secretly (the assassin saw their chance and took it, damn subtlty!).

Basically, the neat thing is that you can map anything with it and, if you do it right, will have a story to tell from the final positions on the map and the time increments are up to you, so you could map a political campaign or other long timescale occurrence as easily as a seduction or conversation over drinks.

Offline Morfedel

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Re: Adapting Rules from Other FATE Games
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2011, 04:24:06 AM »
Geez, now I have to buy Diaspora just to get this social conflict rule. :P

I think a couple of you misunderstood. I'm not trying to use SoF to run Dresden Files. I'm using a few rules from SoF and transplanting it INTO Dresden Files. In general, it's a no-brainer to me that DFRPG actually does a better job of running Dresden Files than SoF would (and while that might seem obvious, I've seen ames for other specific source material that did a poorer job than some less source-specific game, though I cannot at this moment recall a specific example).

However, Dresden Files has, in my mind's eye, several gaping holes, that I'm looking to plug with SoF.

And as a side note, I like SoF a lot too, for different reasons. It isn't flawless, and I certainly did not like a few things it did, but it's overall quite flexible, and at the same time far less complicated than many "multi-genre" games - and I just had a lot of fun building Frodo and Boromir from the Fellowship as a character-building exercise using SoF!

Anyway, that's neither here nor there. I'm already planning on buying Legends of Anglierre... and now it looks like I'll need Diaspora too. The first because my favorite genre is fantasy, and I want to see LoA in comparison to SoF for that genre... and I suppose I'll be stealing the social combat ideas from Diaspora.

So it looks like I'll be creating, unintentionally, my "frankenstein's monster" out of a cobbling together of several FATE systems to something more to my specific liking.

As a side note, I had an idea... you know how in several superhero comics, some characters are clearly more powerful than others, but in superhero games, due to the strive for party balance, that never happens (unless you are playing a game with a character randomization generation sysem).

Well, it occurred to me that with using the Dresden Files method of buying powers with Refresh, you could reflect the same kind of feel: one person could spend a buttload of refresh to make himself a powerhouse, while another could keep most of their refresh to make, for instance, Katherine Pride, aka Shadow Cat, who has little in the way of "Holy crap run it's whatshisface!" abilities.

:)

Offline devonapple

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Re: Adapting Rules from Other FATE Games
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2011, 04:34:05 AM »
I found a Diaspora SRD online  - you may optto start here before buying it:
http://www.vsca.ca/Diaspora/diaspora-srd.html
"Like a voice, like a crack, like a whispering shriek
That echoes on like it’s carpet-bombing feverish white jungles of thought
That I’m positive are not even mine"

Blackout, The Darkest of the Hillside Thickets

Offline Morfedel

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Re: Adapting Rules from Other FATE Games
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2011, 04:34:50 AM »
I found a Diaspora SRD online  - you may optto start here before buying it:
http://www.vsca.ca/Diaspora/diaspora-srd.html


Thank ya, kind sir! :)

Offline newtinmpls

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Re: Adapting Rules from Other FATE Games
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2011, 08:07:44 AM »
"As it is, DFRPG was tweaked from previous FATE offerings to make conflicts a little more brutal."

Brutal is not a word I would have thought to apply to this system. So far of any game system I've played, this one has the players in the least danger. It's more like interactive story telling with role playing than actual risk.

Offline JesterOC

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Re: Adapting Rules from Other FATE Games
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2011, 08:29:24 AM »
Brutal is not a word I would have thought to apply to this system. So far of any game system I've played, this one has the players in the least danger. It's more like interactive story telling with role playing than actual risk.

It depends on the group. If a PC takes too much stress, he is taken out. If the threat wanted to kill the PC, the PC is dead. The book mentions that people who don't want to run the game this way (which the texts appears to imply are the majority of players) the players should ask for concessions to avoid death.

The concession mechanic has two conditions that if not fulfilled means the PC's die when fighting an NPC who is intent on killing the PC.

1) You can't use a concession after a die has been rolled against a PC. So the players must be careful and request a concession BEFORE the final blow is rolled (and depending on the power of the NPC, the player may not know the NPC is brutally strong until after a strike that would take him out).

2) A Concession does not have to be accepted by the GM.

So it is entirely possible to play dfrpg as a brutal cutthroat game where if the players are not cautious and flee the moment they realize they can't take the NPC. It is also possible to use it as interactive story telling system where players desires always supersede the desires of the NPCs. It all depends on the group.

Offline devonapple

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Re: Adapting Rules from Other FATE Games
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2011, 06:19:59 PM »
Brutal is not a word I would have thought to apply to this system. So far of any game system I've played, this one has the players in the least danger. It's more like interactive story telling with role playing than actual risk.

"Bringing the pain" was a quote I heard often from DFRPG playtesters. It's not so much about the lethality of the game as much as how beat up characters can get. DFRPG gives players relatively fewer stress boxes than other FATE games, so players are more likely to take Consequences or Concessions.
"Like a voice, like a crack, like a whispering shriek
That echoes on like it’s carpet-bombing feverish white jungles of thought
That I’m positive are not even mine"

Blackout, The Darkest of the Hillside Thickets

Offline arete

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Re: Adapting Rules from Other FATE Games
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2011, 01:31:54 AM »
I have cherry picked rules from spirit of the century and sof.  Namely persisant aspects for scenes, and extra stunt ideas.
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Offline devonapple

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Re: Adapting Rules from Other FATE Games
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2011, 01:47:29 AM »
I have cherry picked rules from spirit of the century and sof.  Namely persisant aspects for scenes, and extra stunt ideas.

Stunt inspirations can come from anywhere, though with DFRPG, at least one of the goals (per some interview I read - you are free to take this with a grain of salt) was to reduce or eliminate the Stunt Chains that became a big part of Spirit of the Century.

Persistent Aspects are getting some noises of approval here on the boards, and Strands of Fate uses them as well.

I may need to go back and figure out how they do minions and such in SotC.

Edit: yes, Minions (SotC 74) and Companions (SotC 77) may be rules to import into DFRPG to solve some questions about how to have a Familiar, as well as how to reflect Summoners who can be counted on to have Summoned Creatures at their beck and call.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 01:55:19 AM by devonapple »
"Like a voice, like a crack, like a whispering shriek
That echoes on like it’s carpet-bombing feverish white jungles of thought
That I’m positive are not even mine"

Blackout, The Darkest of the Hillside Thickets

Offline arete

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Re: Adapting Rules from Other FATE Games
« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2011, 02:02:47 AM »
I have been burning though the novels and just finished.  Doing a major read of SoF is next after I get caught up on college text.

Looks like I will check those out real quick thanks for bringing them to my attention.
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Offline Morfedel

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Re: Adapting Rules from Other FATE Games
« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2011, 02:35:34 AM »
Stunt inspirations can come from anywhere, though with DFRPG, at least one of the goals (per some interview I read - you are free to take this with a grain of salt) was to reduce or eliminate the Stunt Chains that became a big part of Spirit of the Century.

Persistent Aspects are getting some noises of approval here on the boards, and Strands of Fate uses them as well.

I may need to go back and figure out how they do minions and such in SotC.

Edit: yes, Minions (SotC 74) and Companions (SotC 77) may be rules to import into DFRPG to solve some questions about how to have a Familiar, as well as how to reflect Summoners who can be counted on to have Summoned Creatures at their beck and call.

Actually, I believe SoF INVENTED the idea of Persistent Aspects (though I admit I could be wrong.) I really like the idea a lot.

Offline newtinmpls

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Re: Adapting Rules from Other FATE Games
« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2011, 02:57:42 PM »
Me:
Brutal is not a word I would have thought to apply to this system. So far of any game system I've played, this one has the players in the least danger. It's more like interactive story telling with role playing than actual risk.

Reply:
It depends on the group. If a PC takes too much stress, he is taken out. If the threat wanted to kill the PC, the PC is dead. The book mentions that people who don't want to run the game this way (which the texts appears to imply are the majority of players) the players should ask for concessions to avoid death.

Me again:
If the PC's are staying in a losing fight long enough to risk being "taken out" in this system, they are over their heads - which means they aren't competant to chose their battles, or they are having a really bad day, or they are just not too bright.