Wanting to invoke fate points before the roll.

[Sinister]

Ok so here's the deal.

I like it people invoking aspects before the roll.  Not to deny them any mechanical advantage but rather so the flow of action includes the aspect.  Here's an example.

Someone puts WINDED as an aspect on a bad guy.  I want the player invoking it to say

"I'm going to punch him in the gut so it'll really hurt since his winded"

So I've sort of house ruled that you declare you "might" be using an aspect in order to tag those aspects in a story oriented way. For my home group it's worked pretty well.

But I realize that when I play in public with others wanting to use the official rules it comes down to "I punch the guy"  "ok you hit"  "Ok what aspects can I invoke?" and it's all done retroactively instead of in the flow of the story.

So I was wanting to get some feedback from others on how you would accomplish my goal of wrapping the aspects into the action and still maintain the flexibility of choosing to tag after the roll.

[ScottMcG]

I like the idea of having a player's description of their character's attack touch on relevant/potentially useful aspects, whether it's known ahead of time whether or not they'll actually invoke those aspects once the roll is made.

Your example works well for me.  The player says:

"I rain a flurry of blows down upon the winded wererat!" 

This wouldn't commit him to using the invoke, but adds more flavor, and when/if the invoke of the "mightily winded" aspect is called upon, it flows nicely. Having the players think about the invokable aspects to work them into their maneuver/attack descriptions before declaring the attack would also serve to keep combat from devolving into a "I roll. It rolls. etc." situation.

[sinker]

I've done it both ways and I think the story largely depends on the storyteller. The times when I have invoked aspects afterwards I try to tell a story even in that action. The GM says "You hit" and I respond with "And panting, the were-rat falls into the blow." It always depends on the table as to what the game sounds like.

[Tbora]

Um with Fate one of the uses of them is that you can get a +2 bonus, or a reroll, you can't get the latter if you make them roll beforehand.

[Sinister]

You can get the re-roll. You don't like the roll, roll again after saying you are invoking an aspect.

I really think I like the idea of declaring you "might" use aspect before you roll. Then you work that into your action (in other words a story way WHY the aspect is coming up).  Then decide if you are actually going to do it after the roll.

The only real difference in this house rule over the RAW is you make a declarlation as part of your action that you may be invoking an aspect.  Which fits it in to the story better, at least for the way I run and want my games to run.  Of course that's not how everyone plays.

[finnmckool]

I have no guidelines. They can invoke any time. Mostly they invoke before, though.

[Wolfwood2]

I have no guidelines. They can invoke any time. Mostly they invoke before, though.

Really?  That seems massively disadvantageous.  If you invoke before, you might have just wasted a Fate point because you would have made it on the roll alone.

[sinker]

Really spending a fate point before is all about those dramatic situations when you really want to lay down the wrath on somebody.

[Wolfwood2]

Really spending a fate point before is all about those dramatic situations when you really want to lay down the wrath on somebody.

In those situations I find it's usually not so much a question of whether you spend a fate point, but rather of how many fate points you spend.  Very possibly you may get into a bidding match with the referee.  (You have been saving up your fate points for laying down the wrath, haven't you?)

[mostlyawake]

My group doesn't declare Fate Points until they are needed, but this is mainly due to almost everyone being one away from their refresh level.  So FPs are scarce, my players self-compel to get them, I give them out judiciously, and they spend carefully.  I think in the last big battle they gave up 15 fate points, collectively (across 6 players): literally everything they had saved up in anticipation of the big bad (whom they did not even get to).

But I like the idea of really including the description, making it fit, rather than just tossing a fate point.  So my suggestion for this is to look at other games (Exalted, ect) that encourage stunts... bonuses for descriptions.  You can do this by making the description required for FP use, or, if you're really generous, telling the players that you'll even give them an extra +1 if the description is really, really cool.

An example might be:
PC: I shoot him. (rolls are made).
GM: You're 2 away, so he dodges... but one fate point would make it hit.
PC: Yes, but, he doesn't know he's up against a Gunslinger Extraordinare (tm). I smile smugly as I pull the trigger again milliseconds after the first round, aiming the next shot precisely where he is dodging to.
GM: Good job. You hit, with zero shifts over. So you deal 2 stress, of which his armor soaks one, and he takes 1 physical stress.  Go get a machine gun, this is gonna be looooong...

[sjksprocket]

It really depends if the feel of the game is more mechanical fell or narrative feel. And declaring if you want to have a chance at using them and then deciding after wards whether or not toy do use it is not a big difference. you still get to choose after wards but you have to work it into the description to get that chance. The working it into the description to get the chance I like because it makes the players more conscious of whats going on. They have to make sure they keep track of the aspects that they have that relate, the one that get put onto the enemy, and any location aspects. I can see players missing and then saying "okay, what aspects are applicable?" and not doing anything themselves. You know, be lazy about it.

[finnmckool]

Really?  That seems massively disadvantageous.  If you invoke before, you might have just wasted a Fate point because you would have made it on the roll alone.

Actually they do it out of terror. This system really intimidated them since they were used to more stunning successes from our last game system where we'd been nigh on Godlike in level for quite a while, plus we were doing it wrong and the error was not in their favor. Plus I apparently scare the bajeezus outta them as a GM. So any time there's even a whiff of stakes being raised on the consequences of a roll they'll just declare a FP.

[Nyarlathotep5150]

    There's no reason to hinder the players by forcing them to call their aspects in advance. Nor is it the GMs call. Dreden is not D&D and the GM isn't the arbiter of the rules. The GM gets one vote in a group consensus and his vote is worth no more than any other player.
    However, when a player takes an action, he is supposed describe the action, roll, add all bonuses, invoke all aspects; then, once all bonuses are tallied and the result of the roll is decided, REDESCRIBE the action and its consequences in a way that accounts for all the bonuses (this is actually true of every RPG I've ever played). That is part of the players job, and if they aren't doing that you need to have a talk with them about it.