Author Topic: Aspect-related terminology summary sheet [WIP]  (Read 3014 times)

Offline ScottMcG

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Aspect-related terminology summary sheet [WIP]
« on: December 17, 2010, 11:38:58 PM »
[EDIT: I believe all of my outstanding questions have been answered, and the document links below have been updated with the all of the good input I've gotten from community members.  Note that I intended this as a reference to how the rules are intended to work as source material, and it doesn't include anything I consider to be "house rules". Thanks, all!]

I'm trying to put together a summary sheet for aspect-related terminology for folks who have either never played a fate system game, or whose fate experience has been largely with SotC (this includes me). In doing this, I've uncovered all sorts of things I don't myself know/understand about the basics and finer points.  I've got a few questions that I'd like to propose to the board to see if I can get a better understanding of certain elements. I'm also including a link to the google doc with the summary sheet as a work-in-process. If anyone has any corrections/criticism, I'd love to hear it.

Link: http://tinyurl.com/2crr6sy

PDF Link: http://www.bitterstrength.org/DFRPG/AspectTerminologyinDFRPG.pdf

Here are the questions than I have outstanding after looking through various threads here (the Igor/Voldemort fight example, and resultant discussion were very informative).

1. Can you tag a newly created/discovered aspect on a hostile NPC for a compel, or are tags strictly limited to invokes?

2. What’s the difference between a compel on a hostile NPC’s aspect, and an “invoke for effect” on a hostile NPC’s aspect? Is it that that you can "invoke for effect" only when the result is not directly detrimental to the NPC in question?

3. I'm still a little confused on what effects aspects created by a spell have. Since this example has been used elsewhere, I'll mine it again: Harry Blinds the Loup-Garou.  This spell applies the aspect "blinded" to the target.  I assume this aspect can be mined in all the usual ways: tagged for a free invoke (e.g. gain a +2 on a stealth roll against the target), compelled (e.g. "the blinded Loup-Garou is lured through the open door of the cage-trap").  Narratively, the Loup-Garou is blinded, but is there ever any persistent mechanical effect of this aspect that doesn't require the investment of fate points?


Any input is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!


-Scott
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 05:25:08 PM by ScottMcG »

Offline mostlyawake

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Re: Aspect-related terminology summary sheet [WIP]
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2010, 01:55:18 AM »
1. You can invoke an aspect you created (such as setting a dude ON FIRE, and then getting a +2 on your attempt to hit him with your gun because he's too busy being ON FIRE to dodge), or you can COMPEL the aspect on him, to, say, make him miss the dodge entirely (no roll).  The difference is, if you compel it, you pay a fate point (or the GM lets you do this with your free tag, which i've heard varying responses on this), and the bad guy has to accept the compel and GAIN that fate point, or refuse it and PAY a fate point to the GM. (you still lose yours).   So you're choosing to take a decent gain (a +2), or to get a possibly bigger gain (auto-fail on the NPC action) in exchange for a fate point.

2. I'm not really sure.  Mechanically, they do the same thing.  

3. The creature is blinded. The player can compel that behavior, but so can the GM.  Usually, you'll want to hit this with a good compel, like, shooting the creature and compelling that to cause him to not be able to defend. Instead of a +2, you'll pretty much treat him as if he failed an alertness roll (indeed, if your GM is arguing this, you should simply stealth, compel the alertness roll, then fire)... so he'd be at 0 defense, and then wouldn't get to roll.  But, the next round, when he's still blinded, you're going to need more fate points to keep that up.  Sometimes, a generous GM may compel it for you... but regardless, because the creature took the first compel, he now definitely has a fate point to buy out of the second one. Still, it can wreak havoc on an enemy quickly.


I'm trying to put together a summary sheet for aspect-related terminology for folks who have either never played a fate system game, or whose fate experience has been largely with SotC (this includes me). In doing this, I've uncovered all sorts of things I don't myself know/understand about the basics and finer points.  I've got a few questions that I'd like to propose to the board to see if I can get a better understanding of certain elements. I'm also including a link to the google doc with the summary sheet as a work-in-process. If anyone has any corrections/criticism, I'd love to hear it.

Link: http://tinyurl.com/2crr6sy

Here are the questions than I have outstanding after looking through various threads here (the Igor/Voldemort fight example, and resultant discussion were very informative).

1. Can you tag a newly created/discovered aspect on a hostile NPC for a compel, or are tags strictly limited to invokes?

2. What’s the difference between a compel on a hostile NPC’s aspect, and an “invoke for effect” on a hostile NPC’s aspect? Is it that that you can "invoke for effect" only when the result is not directly detrimental to the NPC in question?

3. I'm still a little confused on what effects aspects created by a spell have. Since this example has been used elsewhere, I'll mine it again: Harry Blinds the Loup-Garou.  This spell applies the aspect "blinded" to the target.  I assume this aspect can be mined in all the usual ways: tagged for a free invoke (e.g. gain a +2 on a stealth roll against the target), compelled (e.g. "the blinded Loup-Garou is lured through the open door of the cage-trap").  Narratively, the Loup-Garou is blinded, but how is there ever any persistent mechanical effect of this aspect that doesn't require the investment of fate points?


Any input is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!


-Scott

Offline noclue

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Re: Aspect-related terminology summary sheet [WIP]
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2010, 04:57:01 AM »
1. Tagging is a free invoke, for a +2 or a reroll.

2. Compelling an aspect on an NPC essentially is an offer to the GM to run their NPC as if they were controlled by a player who had accepted a compel on one of their aspects. Invoking for effect is used to declare a fact or circumstance is true. So, you can Compel the NPC's "Secretly Soft-Hearted" aspect so that they make a decision that gives you a chance of escape. I wouldn't call that an Invoke for Effect. An Invoke for Effect would be more like a Declaration. However, since they both cost a Fate point, proper classification isn't really necessary. If someone in a game says "I'm invoking his Secretly Soft-Hearted for effect to say he leaves me alone long enough for me to work free," it's fine.

3. Narratively he's blinded. If you want that fact to have a mechanical impact, then you have to spend a fate point. If you make his blindness have mechanical impact in a scene, it will be featured even more strongly in the narrative of that scene, because it's now relevant to what's going on and you're talking about it. (I'm sure someone will point out situational modifiers or other ways to avoid spending Fate. But the Fate economy works well for me and the games I play are better when it's active, so I don't look for ways to circumvent it).


Offline ScottMcG

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Re: Aspect-related terminology summary sheet [WIP]
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2010, 10:50:07 PM »
Many thanks to both of you for you input/help. I worked on my document a bit more, added some examples, and learned a lot in the process.

Again, any criticism/corrections are welcome!

http://tinyurl.com/2crr6sy


-Scott

Offline sjksprocket

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Re: Aspect-related terminology summary sheet [WIP]
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2010, 01:47:13 PM »
Awesome compilation here. This will be a great help to my new group I'm forming since none of them have played fate before. Thanks.
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Offline Motman

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Re: Aspect-related terminology summary sheet [WIP]
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2010, 03:56:31 PM »
This was very well done.  I am going to use it for all my new Fate players.  Thank you. ;D
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Offline ScottMcG

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Re: Aspect-related terminology summary sheet [WIP]
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2010, 03:34:37 AM »
I'm excited to hear that this was useful for others as well.

Then again, I'm excited about just about everything. I became a father today!

Ok, that was off topic.  But still!

-S

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Aspect-related terminology summary sheet [WIP]
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2010, 03:38:43 AM »
Congratulations!

Offline ScottMcG

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Re: Aspect-related terminology summary sheet [WIP]
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2011, 10:50:14 PM »
I added a link to a PDF version of the document up top.

Offline ScottMcG

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Re: Aspect-related terminology summary sheet [WIP]
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2011, 05:46:39 AM »
Updated the google doc and PDF at the links in the OP to reflect tag-ability of invoke-for-effects and compels.

Offline bitterpill

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Re: Aspect-related terminology summary sheet [WIP]
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2011, 08:11:57 AM »
A tag is a free invoke.

A tag therefore can do anything an invoke can.

An invoke can invoke for effect.

An invoke for effect can target an aspect other than one directly possessed by the invoker.

An invoke for effect targeting an external aspect found on another character can thereby trigger a compel as the effect it's being "for effect" invoked.

Full stop: all invoking actions at this point have concluded.

Since a compel has been triggered, however, the compel machinery remains in motion.

Compels are negotiated and run between the GM and the target.

It resolves however it resolves.

Sometimes the target accepts it.

Sometimes the target rejects it.

Sometimes the target and GM determine, y'know what? This is weak sauce and doesnt count and the compel doesn't carry through.

This is the last I'm saying on the topic -- I've had like five different people email me about this over the last week and would've hoped more folks were pooling their notes on this. I'm a bit sick of the question, a bit sick of answering it, and would appreciate it if folks asking for some official-word advice (a concept I don't much love) would maybe not argue with me when I come around to give it.

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