Pulling on the Barbed Wire on Someone's Soul

[devonapple]

One of my Wizard Apprentice players wanted to replicate Harry's trick of using The Sight on a victim of a powerful mental spell, and acting to unravel the spell causing the effect.

I ran The Sight as Normal. He was waffling his Lore checks to learn Aspects, but he was acing most of his Discipline checks to avoid Mental Stress - he was in there for a good 4 or 5 exchanges.

I opted to run his efforts to remove the spell construct as a series of Evocation attacks and maneuvers, with the goal of Taking Out the ritual. He didn't get far (ambulances showed up to take the comatose victim away, so they will have to try again later).

How have you handled such a situation?

[Drashna]

One thing you may consider, suggesting that players invoke aspects if they *need* to make the check.  Or re-roll. Or both.  Any "Wizard" high concept would apply, as dark magic like that is lawbreaking and they have an obligation to at least report it to the local warden (or if they *are* the warden, it's their job). 

I've had similar, using the sight to find and take down wards and spells.  So far, I started easy and have been stepping it up (new players).  And suggesting subtly to invoke aspects. And by subtle, I mean, I tell them to do so occasionally.  Again, they *are* new players.  And they're catching on real quick. 

[devonapple]

This was going to be a fairly freeform scene, but having a rules mechanism to do the magical equivalent of surgery sounds like a good idea.
Some curses may not be a candidate for this sort of psychic surgery: full transformations might pervade the victim so thoroughly that there's nothing to pluck away. No hope for full mental collapse, such as with Renfields, and that sort of thing. But for memory curses, and other psychic assaults, this could be a valid option.

My initial take is for the GM to determine the Complexity of the "soul curse" as I will call it in this discourse. Then challenge the player to try to generate that many shifts of effect with either Evocation (Spirit/Psychomancy/etc.), or Thaumaturgy (Spirit/Psychomancy/etc.). The GM could scale up or down depending on the desired difficulty, I suppose.

For Thaumaturgy, keeping The Sight open the whole time wouldn't be really feasible, or even necessary. A few exchanges of successful Lore checks should perhaps give the player an idea of the target Complexity for a ritual to remove whatever soul curse had been placed on the target.

For Evocation, though, generating that much effect could be really difficult. Perhaps Taking Out the soul curse (generating enough shifts of effect for a final "push") would be the best option. Especially since the player will be fighting the horrors in The Sight every round. This would resemble Thaumaturgy at the speed of Evocation, though in this case the player would be getting down and dirty, grappling with the soul curse, rather than "banishing" it such as would make sense with a Thaumaturgic solution.

Should a soul curse fight back, perhaps dealing damage to the victim for any failed checks? Or should that vary between soul curses? Maybe specify that for +2 Complexity, the soul curse will roll against any attempts to remove it, using the original caster's Lore check (pure Lore, not with any focus items or ritual Declarations).

[Drashna]

Personally, I've handled all of them as per counterspelling.  As you *can* hit mid 20's for shifts of power with evocation (at *great* personal cost), you can counter a lot of things.  The hardest part is the assessment role to determine strength.  because counterspelling "requires" you to get the right assessment to judge the number of shifts you need, (too many and you cause fallout, too few and it doesn't work) it definitely has that "surgery" feel. 

Also, thumaturgy would work.  You'd use the sight just long enough to figure out what's the problem, and then go for the "exorcism" feel for the spell. You *would* be exorcising the spell (the "Day Off" short story is a good example of this, actually).


Full transformation could still apply.  It would be a lot more difficult.  "Your Story" mentions that strong willed people could keep their minds intact, for a while. So it would definitely be a race against the clock to undo the transformation. And given the complexity (26+ shifts, starting), would definitely be thaumaturgical. (and thanks for the idea, btw!   And personally, I'd view renfields the same way. But they take hours or more to create, so you'd have to interrupted a blampire to reverse the mental affliction (they'd have mental stress from the psychic attack).

And as for "fighting back": backlash and fallout can describe that well enough.  If you take backlash, you *are* fighting the spell, but it took a good swipe at you. Fallout, and it squeezed it's victim.  It's all about the telling at that point.  Though, you could add a couple extra shifts for the spells casting (as it would be a thaum spell/curse), to ward it against tampering.  (again, thanks for the idea . 

[devonapple]

You're right; Counterspells sound like the most system-appropriate (and already existing) solution. And the example indicates that the difficulty of the Lore roll of the assessment action should be based on the caster's Discipline.

However, there is one line in the description which concerns me: "While such an attempt may only be temporary, it can buy the wizard precious time" (YS 253). Under what circumstances would the soul curse only be temporarily suppressed? Would that be determined by the GM for Plot Complication purposes?

And the rules also indicate that if there aren't enough shifts, the counterspell just doesn't work.

[devonapple]

Any thoughts about allowing Maneuvers to place sticky Aspects on the target/curse/etc. to be tagged for the eventual Counterspell? This may allow savvy casters to walk all over counterspells when they are in a non-conflict situation - possibly making it into a cheap Thaumaturgy ritual - if there is some sort of time pressure and the caster has to weigh each round of Evocation Maneuvers against other distractions, perhaps it would not be quite so game-breaking?

[devonapple]

And personally, I'd view renfields the same way. But they take hours or more to create, so you'd have to interrupted a blampire to reverse the mental affliction (they'd have mental stress from the psychic attack).

If you are talking about counterspelling the Renfield process as it is happening, then I would agree that to be counterspell-enabled. Otherwise, you would have to make Renfield rehabilitation a house rule, because Harry seems pretty firmly of the notion that they are beyond any help at all.

[Drashna]

For the temporary bit:  definitely a function of story.  But things to consider: how long does the spell last?  Is the caster willing to recast it? (or care) Does it have a constant, external power source? Is it vital to the story to remove the spell? 

And you don't necessary need maneuvers for removing the spell, declarations and assessments can get you a number of them. And more importantly, taggable for evocations.  But for thaum, you could do the "typical" stuff. Set up stuff.  Use a circle or three, et cetera.  And as for how to set up the counterspell/removal spell, that's really up to the players, isn't it?   For a weaker spell, evocation is more appropriate, but for stronger spells, thaum may be more appropriate.  And for thaum, transformation/disruption or ward/veil may be more appropriate (transform to completely block the spell, ward to protect against it's effects, plot complications indeed).
As for against distractions, that could work too. Though, i'd be inclined to not use that, and allow "failed concentration" to have effects like looking at murph with the Sight.

And as for the renfields, yes I mean before their minds are crushed.  Trauma like that destroys the mind, which is the point. Which is why it cannot be healed.  Interrupting the process could be an interesting the plot hook, or character origins.

[devonapple]

In this case, the soul curse is ultimately intended to be a minor road block, a sign that the stakes just got higher, and a chance for them to strike a blow against the Big Bad. Unfortunately the players didn't succeed at the Rapport skills to allay suspicions by the neighbors, so they were allowed a few exchanges to see what was going on with the cursed NPC, but had little time to respond to the situation before EMTs would burst on the scene. It was the cliffhanger scene, however, so I may opt to retroactively allow the player to try to Counterspell this curse now that it's clearly the right method to use.

[Drashna]

Well, if the EMTs haven't left the scene yet (hmm, I think there is a pun in there somewhere ), a smart PC could hex the engine (or the power locks on the doors, maybe, or blow out one of the tires) of the ambulance.  If they aren't smart enough to think of that, a generous GM could compel a player to do that.   Though convincing the EMTs to let the PCs take a look at the victim may need some social finesse. Theoretically, shouldn't be very hard at all. They'll be sitting there waiting for the next ambulance to arrive. And nothing better to do.

If they have left already, retro-active may be the way to go.  Or you could drop a clue or maybe somebody gets smart and tries to scry for the component used to create the sympathetic link used the the Thaum ritual.  Or just leave it be. They probably know that somebody is slinging around some bad juju now. Just step it up some more. Maybe, TBBG decides to go after the PCs, or their family.  They *did* arrive on the scene to help the victim, did they not?

[devonapple]

The EMTs had just walked in the door as the caster closed The Sight, and they are sticking to their story that they are concerned friends who saw her on the ground and broke into her apartment to save her.

Social Finesse: lacking. Willingness to hex an ambulance? an easy-to-compel Impulsive aspect.

We will see whether prolonging the scene with hexing and an ambulance-based Counterspell will be more interesting than simply giving the player the option to Counterspell in the action he had originally used a Maneuver. Once I tell him how many shifts he'll need, he may WANT a little more time.