White Court Spellcasters

[sinker]

   See. I think the opposite. Going with this option basically gives all WCV's that learn magic a free power, above and beyond what they payed for.
   Allowing Hunger Stress to stand in for mental stress just doubles the number of spells they can sling per scene.

I think the only reason I'm ok with it is that hunger stress is a B**** to get rid of unless you're willing to kill with no compunction. Which really just means that this is a great option for GMs and a last resort, consequence kinda thing for players. I'd really think it'd even be ok if you wanted them to pay for it but I wouldn't think it'd cost much.

[Nyarlathotep5150]

I think the only reason I'm ok with it is that hunger stress is a B**** to get rid of unless you're willing to kill with no compunction. Which really just means that this is a great option for GMs and a last resort, consequence kinda thing for players. I'd really think it'd even be ok if you wanted them to pay for it but I wouldn't think it'd cost much.

   Its a single roll to get rid of ALL of your hunger stress at the end of an encounter. and if you aren't tying magic to feeding dependency, then using magic isn't making that roll any harder.
   I mean, most encounters where you're slinging spells, you aren't likely to be using much inhuman strength or speed. Nor are you likely to use recovery until later. So, that leaves inhuman toughness. This means in an average fight, the WCV could use up all his physical stress and all of his hunger stress on spells, and have it all go away afterward with a difficulty 2 roll.
   Its too powerful, it should cost at least 1 refresh.
   

[Drashna]

In a fight, yeah, not likely to use half your abilities. Which is why i think it's fun to link spellcasting to feeding dependency.  And as for the suggestion to use hunger instead of mental stess == bad idea.   It should be use mental stress (as it is a strain on your mind, as well as your soul), and check for hunger at the end of the scene.

[MijRai]

   Its a single roll to get rid of ALL of your hunger stress at the end of an encounter. and if you aren't tying magic to feeding dependency, then using magic isn't making that roll any harder.
   I mean, most encounters where you're slinging spells, you aren't likely to be using much inhuman strength or speed. Nor are you likely to use recovery until later. So, that leaves inhuman toughness. This means in an average fight, the WCV could use up all his physical stress and all of his hunger stress on spells, and have it all go away afterward with a difficulty 2 roll.
   Its too powerful, it should cost at least 1 refresh.
   

Why wouldn't they be using Speed? Someone shoots at them, they better dodge. And Speed gives a +4 to initiative, and using that takes Hunger Stress. If they want to hit first, they'll be doing that too.

[Nyarlathotep5150]

Why wouldn't they be using Speed? Someone shoots at them, they better dodge. And Speed gives a +4 to initiative, and using that takes Hunger Stress. If they want to hit first, they'll be doing that too.

   Actually it doesn't. You don't have to pay stress to use the abilities tied to feeding dependency. You make a roll after the scene to see whether you take any Hunger stress. If you make the roll, you also get to clear any hunger stress you have (from prior failed rolls).
   And sure you could use inhuman speed. But this hardly counters my point. Even using inhuman speed and toughness in a fight, its only a difficulty 4 discipline roll at the end of the fight. WCVs always have a high Discipline, and one with magic has twice as much need for it. So any WCV with enough refresh to also have magic abilities (refresh 9 if he only has Ritual or Channeling) will have Discipline 5-6. Since his magic isn't making the roll harder, Hes not likely to fail very often (if ever).
   Thats why using hunger stress to supplement Mental/physical stress in magic would be nothing less than another power (and a pretty awesome one) that they would be getting for free.

[sinker]

  Its a single roll to get rid of ALL of your hunger stress at the end of an encounter. and if you aren't tying magic to feeding dependency, then using magic isn't making that roll any harder.

Ok, yeah forgot that they can clear their stress track if they succeed at staving of their hunger. Although that's one detail that I never liked from a thematic standpoint. That's like saying that you haven't eaten for a day, but because you willed yourself through a strenuous activity and then resisted eating immediately afterwards you don't have to eat ever again (unless you do something strenuous again, then you have to think about eating). Maybe that's why I forgot about that bit.

[Nyarlathotep5150]

   The feeding system is kinda weird. I guess it could be a way of distinguishing the "I'm hungry, but okay" moments from the "I'm at risk of eating my friends" moments.
   I'd guess that the real feeding problems come from hunger consequences. Thus if you can control the hunger (make the roll), its not an issue till next time your pushed. If you can't control it (fail the roll), you take more stress and either take consequences, or are left more likely to take consequences next time you push yourself(consequences the GM can use to turn you on your friends).
   But yes, the feeding rules where the least intuitive system for me as well. Probably because I'm used to the V:tR system of feeding.

[Drashna]

I've been thinking about this a lot, and came across an idea.  Why would *any* WCV learn to be a spellcaster?!?  It's too direct for them.  Only a pitiful, weak WCV would do anything so direct. Instead, they'd use catspaws. Like harry to get their magical dirty work done.  So, while it's possible, just not fitting, theme-wise.

Though there is no reason they couldn't.   It's just a matter if you decide to "attach" it to feeding dependency or not.

[devonapple]

My 2 cents:

I feel a WCV *could* take up spellcasting, and an inventive player could develop dramatically compelling reasons to do so. Easier to justify would be a White Court Virgin trying *not* to give in to the Hunger (if that's your flavor of trouble).

I think in the case of

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the Thomas story, his

non-practitioner use of tracking spells could be explained away as a Resources Declaration that he had trained and paid money to be able to do this particular thing, or perhaps an Aspect Invocation to justify access to the ritual effect. One must admit, though, that in the fiction,

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it didn't work out as well as he wanted, which may indicate that he failed the Lore check, and the GM said "yes, you succeed, BUT now it's a trap and now your investigation is complicated in this whole new way."

[Drashna]

Very much so. Rather, it was a "common ritual" trapping of lore, as described on YS134. 

[devonapple]

Very much so. Rather, it was a "common ritual" trapping of lore, as described on YS134.  

I was thinking of that. I know Circles qualify, according to the canon, but I'm not sure that tracking spells would be. Then again, maybe the example we are discussing is, in fact, the canon establishing them to qualify as a common ritual? Has anyone compiled a list of these common rituals?

[Motman]

There is also another question: would WCV casters have to take Lawbreakers?

I think they
I do not think that they would have to take a point in Lawbreaker.  Though a WCV would be sorely tempted to mess with someones mind, and would probably give in at some point in their lives.

Personally, I'd say the laws still apply.  They are there because of the corrupting effect it has on the caster.

The WCVs still have a soul (

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Thomas and Harry having the soul gaze that triggered their mother's spell.

), so they would technically still be considered mostly human.  Maybe when they lose all of their refresh you could say they have given into the beast and lost their humanity.  I will run it in my campaign like this.  With all of the musts for a WCV, a player will only be able to get Channeling to start with and a -9 Refresh.  No points starting off for Lawbreaker.  However, for a NPC it would be very possible.  I am not sure what would happen to the Lawbreaker if they gave in to the demon and lost their soul.  Will need to think on that one.