Evocation Maneuver duration

[JesterOC]

In the books it states that you need one shift of power to increase the duration of a maneuver for one exchange, however I recall that elsewhere in the book it states that 1 shift will make it last the entire conflict. I can't seem to find that reference, anyone recall this? I think that 1 exchange per shift makes evocation maneuvers very weak (You get better results with a mundane maneuver, without taking a 1 mental stress for the effort.).

Thanks,

JesterOC

[sinker]

I think you're referring to the section on maneuvers on YS207

Exact success on a maneuver (as in, one that
garners no shifts) creates a one-shot temporary
aspect (also called a fragile aspect) that fades
after it is tagged. If you generate one or more
shifts on the maneuver, the aspect created is
sticky and lasts longer, allowing it to be used
more than once.

[Nyarlathotep5150]

I think that 1 exchange per shift makes evocation maneuvers very weak (You get better results with a mundane maneuver, without taking a 1 mental stress for the effort.).

   This seems true at first glance, but theres more to it than that. First of all, mundane maneuvers require a skill roll based on the type of action in question, as where Evocation maneuvers ALWAYS use Discipline. The simple option to do prettymuch any maneuver using your best skill is worth 1 stress.
   Second, mundane maneuver aspects, even if they are sticky, can be removed by anyone willing to take an action to do it. Most Evocation Maneuvers can only be ended early by someone who can dispell them (anyone can try to lift the bookcase you dropped on somebody, but only a wizard can get rid of the wind you used to pin someone down).
   For the most part I think it evens out.

[Wolfwood2]

   Second, mundane maneuver aspects, even if they are sticky, can be removed by anyone willing to take an action to do it. Most Evocation Maneuvers can only be ended early by someone who can dispell them (anyone can try to lift the bookcase you dropped on somebody, but only a wizard can get rid of the wind you used to pin someone down).
   For the most part I think it evens out.

I think it should be judged on a case-by-case basis.  If the maneuver requires magic to remove, then follow the shift-per-exchange rule.  If it can be overcome by mundane skill, then allow it to linger for the scene as per normal (the mental stress 'paying' for allowing Discipline to be used).

As a for instance, I recently took a rote for my spellslinger that allows him to summon up a cloud of cold fog in a zone, imposing a "Impenetrable Mist" aspect on the scene.  As this is a scene aspect (and hence can be used by both friends and enemies) and as it can be overcome by an Alertness roll, I make the case for allowing it to linger the scene.

[WillH]

Anther thing to keep in mind with aspects in general is they are about what is important to the story, not necessarily a reflection of what is going on. Example: A burning build could have the aspect "on fire" because the building being on fire is important to the scene and story. It would not have the aspect "on fire" simply because it is burning. So, if you start a fire with evocation, the fire may continue to burn after the duration, is just stops being important.

[sinker]

If you're looking for other ways to extend it as well you can always look up "Prolonging Spells" on YS259.

[Drashna]

Well, considering that the "Entanglement" spell example. 3 shifts for power, 1 for duration. It's duration is a scene.  Personally, I think it's all about theme. As long as it fits.

[sinker]

It really does depend on the aspect too, as wolfwood was saying. If you're summoning winds or fog or something then you're going to have to put effort into keeping it there, but if you want to tear up the ground and give the aspect "Rocky Terrain" or something then that doesn't really need to be maintained.

[Drashna]

Entanglement doesn't fall into that theme.  But without the longer duration, it isn't worth using, is it?

It really does depend on the spell, and if it is fitting.  Like Harry's volcano spell, a scene seems appropriate for that.  Basically, if it can be justified...

[devonapple]

The difference seems to be whether or not the Evocation Maneuver is targeting a Scene or an individual.

Aspects generated from Evocation maneuvers work the same as non-magical maneuvers: that is, if you get at least one shift of effort, it is sticky and will last the scene or until it is removed, but these Aspects in the book all target oneself or another target.

From YS 293:
"Entanglement
This spell causes a band of force to entangle the target’s ankles, effectively binding him in place...
Power: Varies; typical is 4 shifts—3 for effect plus 1 for additional duration...
Duration: One scene...
Effect: If the spell hits, the target has the sticky Bound in Place temporary aspect applied."

However, a prominent book example indicates that a scene Aspect duration is measured in exchanges, which assumes that Scene Aspects can't be sticky.

From YS 320:
"Evan Montrose wants to make an impression on some local practitioners who are getting a bit out of hand. When he goes to meet them, he decides to whip up some special effects to make sure they know he means business. When he confronts them, he performs a wind evocation as a maneuver to send strong gusts of wind through the area to blow things around and keep people off balance. This is a maneuver on the scene, so the GM decides he needs the basic 3 shifts of power to pull it off. Evan decides to bring 6 shifts of power to make the winds last for an additional three exchanges, figuring he can use the distraction to his advantage if things get dicey. He succeeds at performing the spell, and the GM places an aspect of Hideously Strong Winds on the scene."

[devonapple]

So, going from those examples, I think the spirit of the difference is that when you place an Aspect on an individual target, you are committing to using that Aspect against that individual. When you place a Scene Aspect, that can (with enough Fate Points) be used to affect any target in the zone of effect.

[devonapple]

if you want to tear up the ground and give the aspect "Rocky Terrain" or something then that doesn't really need to be maintained.

Actually, yeah, I can't justify having that effect require maintenance... though somebody could also have phrased their maneuver as "Grasping Fists of Earth" which definitely sounds like it requires maintenance.

[sinker]

It seems like thematically, there could be a very fine line between using magic to maneuver (I.E. tearing up the ground, or knocking someone down) and using magic to place an aspect on something (I.E. entangling vines, driving winds or pinning someone against a wall).

[devonapple]

It seems like thematically, there could be a very fine line between using magic to maneuver (I.E. tearing up the ground, or knocking someone down) and using magic to place an aspect on something (I.E. entangling vines, driving winds or pinning someone against a wall).

I still feel that targeting a single person with the Evocation Maneuver means the Aspect could be made sticky.

I'm wondering the refined difference is whether or not a given Evocation-based Scene Aspect can be considered fair game for any combatant to Invoke, or solely for the caster.  Let's take a Combat Example:

Wizard versus Troll.
Exchange 1: Wizard casts an Earth Evocation Maneuver to place the sticky "Broken Ground" aspect on the scene.
Exchange 2: Wizard casts an Earth Evocation Attack at the Troll, tagging the "Broken Ground" aspect for a +2, explaining that the Troll is having trouble keeping its footing and stumbles around a little. Troll responds, performing a Maneuver to place the Blinded Aspect on the Wizard, using a Fate Point to tag "Broken Ground" for a +2 to the roll, explaining that it kicks a big quantity of the now-loose earth at the Wizard's face.

Now, let's look at the same combat, with a different Earth Evocation Maneuver.
Exchange 1: Wizard casts an Earth Evocation Maneuver to place the sticky "Grasping Fists of Stone" aspect on the scene.
Exchange 2: Wizard casts an Earth Evocation Attack at the Troll, tagging the "Grasping Fists of Stone" aspect for a +2, explaining that the very ground is attempting to hinder the Troll's efforts to avoid the attack. Can the Troll feasibly spend a Fate Point to use the Aspect "Grasping Fists of Stone" in a way that would benefit his counterattack against the Wizard?

[sinker]

I think that the "Driving winds" example is one that shows the disconnect between our two thoughts. It is an aspect that thematically would require maintenance, however it could be used against the wizard and his companions. Same Example:

Exchange 1: Wizard casts an Air Evocation Maneuver to place the sticky "Driving Winds" aspect on the scene.
Exchange 2: Wizard casts an Air Evocation Attack at the Troll, tagging the "Driving Winds" aspect for a +2, explaining that the Troll is Knocked off his feet and the wizard then slams him down. Troll responds with an attack, tagging the aspect for a +2 stating that an unforeseen object was whipped up by the winds and has knocked the wizard forward, into the attack.