Focused Practitioner vs Wizard

[Vryce]

Hmm, I see what you mean, but I'm not sure I'd allow this without some sort of further justification. Spirit is pretty well defined in YS as the go-to for veils, force, and mind magic. I have trouble seeing it used this way.

Note, I'm not trying to be asinine about this, I just think that there are some limits that are pretty well defined, and this seems like one of them. It's always strange to me that a lot of people (not saying you are one of them) seem to interpret any element as doing anything. You can't drown someone in earth, can't burn them with water, can't make a solid wall out of fire, etc., etc.

I agree with this in most parts.
But the world is based off of belief, and we have seen time in the books were the something like fire, could cause ice.
For Spirit I would using something like this,  I use my spirit to force(move) the molecules of the air between me and the rock(because we want to burn rock).  Causing the air to vibrate(friction) make a supper heated air current to attack that darn evil rock.
Then it all goes back to the character, young wizard trained to move thing around with his mind(spirit) may not think of this.  Someone that studies the subject might… maybe

[sinker]

The big thing about making Ice with fire or fire with force is that thematically it usually requires a lot of wasted energy. Mechanically there's no basis for that but I think as a GM I would require someone to throw more power into something if they were trying to do that.

[Belial666]

Actually, there IS a mechanical weakness. If you're using an element for things it is not suited for, you take a penalty in the power of the effect. For example, Harry's spirit shield is very effective vs kinetic attacks but has a penalty vs energy attacks - as we saw in the books. Simply enforce the "blind spots" of every elements. Below is my take on the most appropriate effects for every element;

Spirit
Strong: mental effects (vs discipline), force effects (vs athletics), veils (vs perception)
Weak: physical energy effects, matter manipulation

Fire
Strong: energy effects (vs athletics), draining energy (vs endurance), purifying force (more effective vs "dark" powers)
Weak: most types of defense, physical force


Earth
Strong: manipulating objects and terrain (vs might), gravity and magnetism (vs endurance), resilience/toughness effects (armor and blocks)
Weak: most types of subtle effects

Water
Strong: entropy effects (vs endurance), living matter control (endurance/discipline), subtle matter manipulation
Weak: overt force

Air
Strong: movement (might), force (athletics), subtle air effects
Weak: energy effects

So, a shield of spirit might do very well against bullets, against a crushing wall of earth it or a powerful gust of wind. It won't do very well if someone tries to disintegrate you or poison you with water magic or boil/freeze your blood with fire magic; spirit just can't affect physiological changes or affect nonmagical energy.

Similarly, a shield of fire might easily redirect magical force and diffuse energy attacks but it won't do so well if someone tries to beat you to death.

A shield of earth would absorb anything physical easily but would not be so hot against mental effects or veils.

A shield of air could redirect poisons and physical attacks but might not do so well against direct energy.

[devonapple]

Excellent list, very useful. In this system, how would you envision someone create Harry's later Shield spell, which had been reinforced (at greater Mental Stress) to affect a greater spread of possible damage sources?

[Belial666]

Well, it doesn't actually defend against a broader spectrum of attacks. The block rating of the shield has simply been improved.

The shield was originally block 5 [5 for Harry's conviction, with shield bracelet only giving bonus control], and it blocked at a -2 penalty vs energy attacks (such as fire), it would have an effective block of 4 - which a great attack could break through.
The improved shield would be block 8 or 9 [5 for conviction, +1 to +2 spirit power specialization, with improved shield bracelet giving +2 to defense power and control], it would have an effective block of 6 or 7 vs energy, which would be enough to block up to superb attacks.

Of course, this increase does result in blocking a broader attack range in the end - but it is still less efficient than a shield of another type.

[MorosMage]

Hmm, I see what you mean, but I'm not sure I'd allow this without some sort of further justification. Spirit is pretty well defined in YS as the go-to for veils, force, and mind magic. I have trouble seeing it used this way.

 It's always strange to me that a lot of people (not saying you are one of them) seem to interpret any element as doing anything. You can't drown someone in earth, can't burn them with water, can't make a solid wall out of fire, etc., etc.

1) buried alive = drowning in earth
2) Steam = burned with water
3) well, may not be solid per se, but you try walking through it

[sinker]

Of note steam is heat. You try making steam with only water. If a practitioner has both fire and water I'm all good with them throwing around steam and if there's existing steam I wouldn't have a problem with a water channeler directing it but I'd have issues with a water channeler creating steam.

[Quazar]

Of note steam is heat. You try making steam with only water. If a practitioner has both fire and water I'm all good with them throwing around steam and if there's existing steam I wouldn't have a problem with a water channeler directing it but I'd have issues with a water channeler creating steam.

Steam is water molecules moving really really fast.  It's become a gas, and has more energy left over so it's hot.  I don't know, since elements don't actually exist in real life, it's difficult to pin down what can and what can't be done with them.

[sinker]

Ok, a way actually occurred to me to create steam with only water (forcing it with high pressures through a very tight spot, much like we create heat using electricity) but again it's incredibly inefficient.

[finnmckool]

Have to throw in another couple of pennies here. Focused Practitioners are an incomplete education, however, I think it's just as valid to say that while sanctaphax's fire specialist wizard was stronger than the pyromancer, the point is, he was only a LITTLE stronger. True he can do other stuff, but to me, the point is that the focused practioner is strong ENOUGH to hang with the wizard and essentially, strong enough to play the game on a submerged level. Who's stronger? Well, really, at a certain point it comes down to the cleverness of the player. The focused practioner is strong enough, and, really, as a player, that's all that matters, that your character can hang with the gang and isn't all "interesting character fluff" but is a ripped up character sheet after one rush of kobolds.

[Drashna]

Burn with Water? Easy, even the book recommends a way to do: ACID. Acid is water. Carry a car battery with you everywhere.
As for fire, slag that metal/cement. Molten wall.   Or create a wall of non-fire heat that is too hot for anything to cross.

it's all about your creativity.

[Belial666]

It's not that some elements cannot do something. It is that it is less efficient.


For example, I could accept someone that could control water to force it to sublimate into steam. However, that would need them to control and give energy to individual molecules while the guy with the fire would just have to blast it, no need to expend extra energy for finely regulated effects. Thus the -2 penalty to power when using Water to do something it cannot easily do.

Similarly, fire could slag the metal/cement and then expend additional effort to control the movement of molecules within the molten material into forming a wall. But that would take a lot more energy than someone with Earth shaping the metal/cement using pure force. Thus the -2 penalty to power.

[Vryce]

One more thing to add, the Template FP is just a starting point.  it does not mean you have to stay a FP for the rest of you play with the character.  nothing is set in stone in this game.
just my little 2 cents.

[Sitrein]

I was just talking with my boss at work today about this very thing (I work in a bookstore. We're all geeks). We both agree that the mechanics on this are flawed according to the books. FPs SHOULD be able to take refinement. According to the novels, some people's gifts of magic simply don't allow them to be full fledged wizards. Wizards have more power and options but they spread that power across all those options. Now, yes, a wizard is likely going to beat a FP in a duel because of the options, but foci aside, just using the one area of magic that the FP has access to? There's no reason that the FP wouldn't be able to hold his own or win, depending. Sure, he/she might not have the formal training of the wizard but all they do is that one area of magic. They would, over enough time, know that area of magic absurdly well if they wanted to.

No, the refinement shouldn't be able to be used for foci/enchanted items but powering up their one area of magic? Hell yeah.

[MyNinjaH8sU]

Just pointing out, right now they can use refinement for enchanted items/foci. Are you saying you disagree with that part as well?