Author Topic: Social Conflicts Like Pulling Teeth  (Read 9182 times)

Offline devonapple

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Social Conflicts Like Pulling Teeth
« on: December 07, 2010, 08:17:26 AM »
I'm having a hard time running Social Conflicts. It may simply be that the players haven't prioritized Social skills, but whenever I have an NPC who needs to be won over with social graces, the game just bogs down: the players roll poorly, and end up having to squander Fate Points. Any good threads, resources, or words of advice?
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Offline Wyrdrune

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Re: Social Conflicts Like Pulling Teeth
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2010, 08:30:02 AM »
i am not always doig it as conflicts... if the players think they are witty or suave enough, they play it out.

Offline Papa Gruff

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Re: Social Conflicts Like Pulling Teeth
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2010, 02:31:24 PM »
We are handling it along with the normal game play. Usually we (or I as the GM) decide that we enter into a social conflict. From there on the normal conflict rules are followed, but instead of just describing actions we integrate the social combat into the normal RP conversation.

Depending on how the skill test for the actions turn out they get reflected in the normal RP. That means, if the socially strong bad guy gets lip from the groups Scion of Heimdal, who fails his direct social intimidation attempt, the bad guy acts accordingly amused or deflects the failed intimidation nonchalantly. If it is his turn in the exchange the bad guy'll probably try to smoothly turn the failed intimidation into an action of his own.

That said, we treat the results of social combat actions as kind of a guideline that governs the social conflict. What ever action is taken has in some way to be part of the RP that is involved. At least to me that's usually great fun. ... Go with the flow ...
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Offline Wolfwood2

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Re: Social Conflicts Like Pulling Teeth
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2010, 03:27:58 PM »
I'm having a hard time running Social Conflicts. It may simply be that the players haven't prioritized Social skills, but whenever I have an NPC who needs to be won over with social graces, the game just bogs down: the players roll poorly, and end up having to squander Fate Points. Any good threads, resources, or words of advice?

Make failure more interesting.  The really nice thing about social conflicts is that it isn't so much game over if you're taken out or concede.  Rather it means you get forced into a social obligation or position you didn't want to be in.

Your players are "squandering" Fate points because they're convinced that they have to win for the plot to progress.  If they elected to lost, they'd _gain_ Fate points.  You might want to tell them, "By the way guys, I'm designing some of these social conflicts on the assumption that you'll lose.  I mean, if you decide you want to pull it out and win that's your call and I'll deal, but if you want to let yourselves get talked into a sticky situation, that's just fine with me."

Your NPC doesn't "need" to be won over.  It's okay if he's not!

Offline devonapple

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Re: Social Conflicts Like Pulling Teeth
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2010, 03:56:00 PM »
In this case the challenge was getting a suspect's mother to trust them enough to admit there was something suspicious going on with her son, and with that trust, some clues would come. She had the aspects Concerned Mother and Keeping Up Appearances.
"Like a voice, like a crack, like a whispering shriek
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Offline devonapple

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Re: Social Conflicts Like Pulling Teeth
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2010, 04:07:42 PM »
Should that have been a simple test, or completely uncontested?
"Like a voice, like a crack, like a whispering shriek
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Offline noclue

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Re: Social Conflicts Like Pulling Teeth
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2010, 04:24:16 PM »
With two aspects like that your PCs are going to need to be pretty damn convincing to talk her into dropping dime on the kid. Are they that convincing? If not, looks like they're going to need to find another way.

Maybe they should have tried to convince her that the kid needed saving and spent a fate point for a compel of "Concerned Mother."

Offline devonapple

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Re: Social Conflicts Like Pulling Teeth
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2010, 04:25:20 PM »
Also, my PCs are commonly going around all together to interview people.

In the case of dealing with a reticent, intimidating but socially inclined opponent (such as, say, a Sphinx), should their "targets" be rolling their Social attacks against all the players at once (for example, rolling an Intimidation check against everyone at the beginning and dealing Social stress if the players fail their Defense rolls) or does any attack against a group need to be split like a Spray attack in a gunfight?

Just thought of this: should the opponent instead be using the Intimidation check as a social maneuver to set an environmental aspect Intimidating which can then be tagged for free in an appropriate later social exchange with whichever player it likes?
"Like a voice, like a crack, like a whispering shriek
That echoes on like it’s carpet-bombing feverish white jungles of thought
That I’m positive are not even mine"

Blackout, The Darkest of the Hillside Thickets

Offline devonapple

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Re: Social Conflicts Like Pulling Teeth
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2010, 04:28:05 PM »
With two aspects like that your PCs are going to need to be pretty damn convincing to talk her into dropping dime on the kid. Are they that convincing? If not, looks like they're going to need to find another way.
Maybe they should have tried to convince her that the kid needed saving and spent a fate point for a compel of "Concerned Mother."

It's true! I was waiting for them to use an Empathy assessment to discover that Aspect and tag it, but it never happened. Their Empathy checks are pretty low, and the one guy with a decent Empathy rolls terribly.

At one point, they tried an appeal that SHOULD have targeted the Concerned Mother Aspect, had they known about the Aspect. Should I have given them the +2 or asked for a Fate Point for it to work, even though they didn't Assess the Concerned Mother aspect? Treat it as a Guessed Aspect?
"Like a voice, like a crack, like a whispering shriek
That echoes on like it’s carpet-bombing feverish white jungles of thought
That I’m positive are not even mine"

Blackout, The Darkest of the Hillside Thickets

Offline Wolfwood2

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Re: Social Conflicts Like Pulling Teeth
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2010, 04:34:27 PM »
Also, my PCs are commonly going around all together to interview people.

In the case of dealing with a reticent, intimidating but socially inclined opponent (such as, say, a Sphinx), should their "targets" be rolling their Social attacks against all the players at once (for example, rolling an Intimidation check against everyone at the beginning and dealing Social stress if the players fail their Defense rolls) or does any attack against a group need to be split like a Spray attack in a gunfight?

I would let them hit the whole group at once, even though that's probably not technically correct by the rules.

That said, I don't think that "interviewing" people should be a constant flood of full-scale social conflicts.  If the other party doesn't want something from your PCs as well, it's not much of a conflict and better settled with a single roll.

Whenever you go into a social conflict, you need to have a goal for the opposing part if the PCs lose.  Preferably a more exciting goal then, "I want them to go away."  If they don't have a goal of their own, it's probably better a single roll than a conflict.

Quote
Just thought of this: should the opponent instead be using the Intimidation check as a social maneuver to set an environmental aspect Intimidating which can then be tagged for free in an appropriate later social exchange with whichever player it likes?

By thwe way, you're aware that Intimidation can also be prvocation and mouthing off, right?  It doesn't have to be threats.

Offline devonapple

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Re: Social Conflicts Like Pulling Teeth
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2010, 04:36:24 PM »
By thwe way, you're aware that Intimidation can also be prvocation and mouthing off, right?  It doesn't have to be threats.

Of course! But I'm sketchy enough on Social Conflicts that its not always easy to remember in the heat of the moment.
"Like a voice, like a crack, like a whispering shriek
That echoes on like it’s carpet-bombing feverish white jungles of thought
That I’m positive are not even mine"

Blackout, The Darkest of the Hillside Thickets

Offline devonapple

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Re: Social Conflicts Like Pulling Teeth
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2010, 04:42:58 PM »
Another thought: it is said that the players' Aspect choice determines the type of game and situations they want to see. Should their choice of Skills be factored into it as well?

If an entire group has put minimal effort into Social skills, should Social situations be emphasized less often? Or should they come up whenever reasonable, and simply provide consistently entertaining ways for the players to stumble, fail, concede and get Fate Points?

And if a whole group Concedes against an opponent, would each one get a concession Fate Point?
"Like a voice, like a crack, like a whispering shriek
That echoes on like it’s carpet-bombing feverish white jungles of thought
That I’m positive are not even mine"

Blackout, The Darkest of the Hillside Thickets

Offline Arcteryx

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Re: Social Conflicts Like Pulling Teeth
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2010, 04:46:08 PM »
There's Rapport which they can use to chit-chat the mother as well.

I feel your pain with the social conflict aspect of the system.

So far I've been doing a lot of hand-holding, to explain how to go about using the mechanics and their skills to go about things. One of the best tips I read here was to determine the objective of the "social conflict", which helps focus what skills can come into play. In physical conflict that's obvious ("I wanna eat his fskin' ribs for dinner"), sometimes in a social conflict... not as much.

But right now my players and I talk a lot about the mechanics during play, so there's a lot of back and forth on "Well what should I do now" or "Here's an idea..." I've been learning as much about it from them as they are from me.

I'm hopeful that as we all gain experience with it, the system will start to fade into the background.

Offline devonapple

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Re: Social Conflicts Like Pulling Teeth
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2010, 04:53:06 PM »
There's Rapport which they can use to chit-chat the mother as well.

Oh, those rolls were flying, but the best they had was an Average Rapport skill, while the Concerned Mother had a Good Rapport skill.

But right now my players and I talk a lot about the mechanics during play, so there's a lot of back and forth on "Well what should I do now" or "Here's an idea..." I've been learning as much about it from them as they are from me.

We do as well. But with Social Conflicts, it starts to really become uncertain.
"Like a voice, like a crack, like a whispering shriek
That echoes on like it’s carpet-bombing feverish white jungles of thought
That I’m positive are not even mine"

Blackout, The Darkest of the Hillside Thickets

Offline noclue

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Re: Social Conflicts Like Pulling Teeth
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2010, 05:42:57 PM »
At one point, they tried an appeal that SHOULD have targeted the Concerned Mother Aspect, had they known about the Aspect. Should I have given them the +2 or asked for a Fate Point for it to work, even though they didn't Assess the Concerned Mother aspect? Treat it as a Guessed Aspect?

Okay, so the answer to this question is really all about what this conflict means to you and what you want from it. I could see asking for a fate point and going with a "Tag for effect." Which gets the mother talking. Can we get info out of her mom doesn't feel terribly grabby, unless you had more you wanted out of mom later. So, what were you hoping for from the conflict?

I have a very social sorcerer in our game and I like to throw around social stress in the middle of battles. For example, I tagged a warden who was part of a group out gunning for us with a "she trusts me" consequence, which I knew was going to come up later and has changed the story in a number of ways (like she started wanting to find out more about us rather than kill us, which led to a soul gaze and an awesome scene last game."