Author Topic: Can you "prolong" another spell as a Rote spell?  (Read 3199 times)

Offline ironpoet

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Can you "prolong" another spell as a Rote spell?
« on: December 02, 2010, 03:55:39 PM »
Page 259 in "Your Story" describes how you can prolong an existing spell.  Prolonging a spell is essentially like casting a new spell that adds shifts of power to the existing one.  Therefore I'm curious if you could create a Rote spell that does this.

Basically, could Johnny Wizard have the following two Rote spells?

"Stonewall"
Type: Earth evocation, defensive block
Power: 5 shifts
Duration: One exchange
Effect: Deflects an incoming attack. If overcome, it vanishes.

"Filibuster"
Type: Earth evocation, defensive maneuver
Power: 5 shifts
Effect: Prolongs a "Stonewall" effect for five more exchanges

Also, if this type Rote spell is allowed, would you have to specify the type of spell it prolongs?  You don't have to specify the target of offensive Rote spells, so could you just have a generic "Prolong" Rote spell?

"You can do it!"
Type: Spirit evocation, defensive block
Power: 5 shifts
Effect: Prolongs an active magical effect for five more exchanges

Offline Tsunami

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Re: Can you "prolong" another spell as a Rote spell?
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2010, 05:21:18 PM »
In regards to the first two spells, stonewall and stonewall-extender, i'd say thats absolutely possible.

In regards to a generic prolong-spell... at the very least you'd have to define what element the spell prolongs.
To prolong an earth block, you'd need an earth-prolong spell, to prolong fire, you'd need a fire-prolong spell, etc.
I'd also say you'd have to specify if a maneuver or a block is what is to be extended, but since prolonging makes most sense with blocks in any case, that's probably not much of a problem.

Personally, i'd probably allow something like that:

"You can do it!"
Type: XYZ evocation, prolong-block
Power: 5 shifts
Effect: Prolongs an active magical XYZ-block for five more exchanges

but opinions may vary.

If you want to take advantage of focus items, then you'd also have to specify offensive/defensive.

Offline sinker

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Re: Can you "prolong" another spell as a Rote spell?
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2010, 07:00:07 PM »
Thus far my group has been playing it that you can prolong any spell (even rotes) without the need for a formal "spell". Seems to me it's more of a matter of just feeding gas into a machine that's already running. I guess the advantage of making it a rote would be no discipline roll but every detail of a rote has to be the exact same thing every time so I'd probably rule that you had to make it like the first set there (Your stonewall and filibuster spells).

Offline ironpoet

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Re: Can you "prolong" another spell as a Rote spell?
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2010, 07:08:11 PM »
Thus far my group has been playing it that you can prolong any spell (even rotes) without the need for a formal "spell". Seems to me it's more of a matter of just feeding gas into a machine that's already running. I guess the advantage of making it a rote would be no discipline roll but every detail of a rote has to be the exact same thing every time so I'd probably rule that you had to make it like the first set there (Your stonewall and filibuster spells).

Oh sure, I definitely agree that you can prolong without a formal Rote spell.  I'm just curious about whether you can get the Rote spell benefits (no chance of failure).

Offline Vryce

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Re: Can you "prolong" another spell as a Rote spell?
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2010, 07:15:18 PM »
I think there should be a chance for failure.  I think It says something about having to gather power, so to refuel a spell you still have to re-gather your power, sense it is not one of our routs, your just empowering a rout.  Now it should be easier, your just looking to up the time 1 or 2 or 3 shifts that should be easy for any wizard.
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Offline ironpoet

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Re: Can you "prolong" another spell as a Rote spell?
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2010, 07:24:32 PM »
I think there should be a chance for failure.  I think It says something about having to gather power, so to refuel a spell you still have to re-gather your power, sense it is not one of our routs, your just empowering a rout.  Now it should be easier, your just looking to up the time 1 or 2 or 3 shifts that should be easy for any wizard.

Generally, yes.  But my specific question is whether or not you can assign one of your Rote spells to be a "prolong spell", which would eliminate the chance of failure.  So, in this case, it would be one of your rotes (assuming that it is allowed).

Offline devonapple

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Re: Can you "prolong" another spell as a Rote spell?
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2010, 07:24:56 PM »
Oh sure, I definitely agree that you can prolong without a formal Rote spell.  I'm just curious about whether you can get the Rote spell benefits (no chance of failure).

Although personally I feel the idea to be sketchy, I must admit that the caster gets so few rote spells that giving up one of them simply to prolong another spell is enough of a sacrifice as to not be abusive. Plenty of other DFRPG magical rules operate on similar principles (give up an enchanted item slot for 2 more uses of another enchanted item), so if it is important enough to the player that THIS spell lasts the duration of most combat scenes, I'd allow it.
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Offline Vryce

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Re: Can you "prolong" another spell as a Rote spell?
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2010, 07:30:45 PM »
Sorry i failed to finish my point, mind on work lol... i was saying that a few shifts should be easy... would not want to wast a rout on something that most wizards would have no problem not failing.
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Offline mostlyawake

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Re: Can you "prolong" another spell as a Rote spell?
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2010, 03:37:17 AM »
From a narrative standpoint, what is being gained or lost by allowing a generic prolonged spell?

 Say you put a rote block on someone in exchange one, and now extend it in exchange 2.  

You lose the chance for failure, which is possibly dramatically important.  

In my experience, if that roll did fail, the player will then spend a fate point to keep that failure from happening: this is the type of roll that if you miss it, you tend to miss it by only one or two (being you rolling unopposed against a difficulty that you're setting, you basically only fail by more than that on a really suck roll or by setting the difficulty too high). Thus, it's a perfect fate point expenditure, and appropriate for a dramatic moment.

But extending a spell itself isn't as narratively cool as casting a new spell; it's really just locking it down a little better.  And if someone is devoting a rote to it, they are saying "I've got this down pat, i plan on using this spell multiple times in a session, and this is an important part of who my character is and how s/he relates to magic."

So, by allowing a generic prolong rote, you're letting a player say "my character is the kind of guy who has NO trouble extending his magic for a reliable duration, once he gets the spell up."  Which is a cool, useful thing, on par with Molly's perfect wards or harry's extreme fire magic.

However, if it's so good that absolutely every player would want an extend rote (and they might), then it becomes uncool for lacking uniqueness.

So, I'd probably okay it if there was one wizard in the group, or only one person using spells that benefit from extension, because it's a more powerful statement about the character than the drama I would get out of making the roll happen.

If there were multiple wizards in a group, I'd probably lock it down to the same type of magic, as the first example showed (an earth magic extension, ect), to keep some uniqueness.



Offline Jack B

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Re: Can you "prolong" another spell as a Rote spell?
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2010, 05:26:51 PM »
Sorry i failed to finish my point, mind on work lol... i was saying that a few shifts should be easy... would not want to wast a rout on something that most wizards would have no problem not failing.


Personally, I think this is a great use of a rote spell.  If you would have to roll it any excess +s are useless but any -s are bad.  When you cast a spell (non prolonging spell) normally any extra +s give you a better chance of hitting and deal extra damge and any -s are just as bad as the prolonging rote's. 

Of course this is for a wizard who's conviction and discipline are even or close to even.