Wards and the First Law

[sinker]

Just my own two cents, a ward that did nothing but reflect any attack on it would be breaking the first law if it killed someone. Good news though, most beings (even in game) would have a nearly impossible chance of killing themselves with their own strength used against them, especially since they'd likely only be hit once before the lesson is learned. Put a human who tries to bust down a door (ward) he might hit with 4 or 5 shifts, but a moderate consequence will soak that right up. In the end he gets a broken nose and becomes very hesitant of doing anything to said wizard.

Mortal wizards are still mortal and could easily kill someone their own caliber. On top of that what happens if a mortal fires a fully automatic weapon at it? That much force would (and does) rip a human to shreds.

[Samael]

I am of the opinion Wards do not break the First Law as while a wizard sets the magic up true, its not their fault if some idiot tries to break into their apartment and subsequently gets fried. To me the First Law involves intent, and then intent to me for a Ward is to repel or stop an attack not to kill generally so unless you are making a Ward specifically so it will be fatal to anyone or anything that tries your in the clear. Their is a very large difference between blasting someone with a fireball knowingly trying to burn them to ashes and them running head first into your Ward. One is an act of free will on your part (the fireball) the other is action on theirs. Its like a heavy duty alarm system really, once you set it, anything that happens beyond that is not your fault as its their own stupidity that brought it upon them.

[Raiden333]

I'm of the opinion that wards only count if they were designed with the intent to kill. That's what magic is about anyway, intent.

I mean, one somewhat related example I noticed while rereading Changes today:

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When Harry/Susan/Martin are raiding that compound in Nevada, at one point the mercenaries tries to shoot Harry, but his shield ends up bouncing the bullets back and hitting one of them in the gut. Harry doesn't even give him a second thought, even though that probably killed him.

So basically, I would only count defensive magic as breaking the first law if it's being employed with full intention of lethal consequences.

[MijRai]

If a ward does harm on its own, it is a Lawbreaker. If it only reflects what another did back to them, I think it does not break the Laws. Blood Rites and Proven Guilty are two cases of Harry trying to redirect magic back to who it came from, whatever the consequences of that action would be. He even justifies it quite nicely.

[Kaldra]

i agree otherwise any wizard pc who wards there house with the standard ward is going to rack up the law breakers really quickly.

[Ranma1558]

A spell tossed at the ward is the spell that comes back, the intent is squarely on the caster not the maker of the ward, you reap what you sow, I go as far to say bullets and weapons rebounding are the fault of the user more then anything. If you throw a baseball at a rubber wall and it bounces back to hit you who's at fault? But, if you add a bit of top spin to your wards all damage is on your head.

[Todjaeger]

Something else to consider.  Wards in and of themselves just reflect the amount of force projected against them, back at whoever/whatever was exerting it.  Unless of course there are more shifts of force than shifts of Ward.  Now 'landminds' can also be built into Wards, with Harry having done so some time prior to Dead Beat.

My theory on Changes:

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Harry seemed to have the normal Ward, plus 'landmines' built in.  Harry also seemed to have an additional 'layer' which could be activated, which could create an essentially inpenetrable barrier into or out of the Ward, until the next sunrise.  The downside as mentioned in Dead Beat and Turn Coat is that while nothing could get into or out of the rooming house Harry lived in, the building itself could still be set on fire, which would be a problem if people were trapped in the building by the Ward.  In Changes, Harry had Bob completely drop the Ward because the 'normal' way law enforcement conduct a raid (with a battering ram) would likely have triggered several effects from the Ward, amongst them having it automatically go 'up' denying entry or exit for a day.

[Vryce]

From what I read in the books and games books, if anyone uses magic and it kills, accident or not it breaks the first law.  The Example went something like this:  you use a gust of wind to push someone back, they fall(long ways down) or just fall and break there neck.  You did not mean to kill but y ou still broke the laws for magic.
I see wards as no different.  And most wizards are sure to put multiple wards up to effect different things.  The Go away sales men Ward, a Ghoul touches my door and a nuke goes of ward, Veils to discourage , hide, and forget(maybe not forget another Law of magic). 
But im sure if you set up a ward to blow up a tactical nuke if someone breaks down your door and some human die…. It’s the Chopping Block for you….

[easl]

This is the second posting on the 1st law.  Are YW235-236 that hard to understand?  I thought they provided reasonable guidance for games.  Intent matters, accidental killing counts, wizards using mundane force don't count, and every gaming group should discuss it.  Good advice.

In terms of booby-trapped wards, I think its pretty clear that both the intent and accident part would make it a violation.  If the wizard is intending to create a ward that can take out a red court vamp (for instance), that's a pretty clear intent of lethal force. If a mortal gets caught in it, you've broken the law.  If you create a ward with the power of a bug zapper and it happens to trip someone's pacemaker, that is like a conjured wind accidentally sweeping someone off a roof - you didn't intend it, the force wasn't lethal, but the accident was still killing with magic.  But I would also say that the fourth part of my summary trumps the other three - discuss it with your group and come to some decision about it.  If you all decide that for your game it doesn't apply, that's fine too.

[Fiordhraoi]

I'd argue there's a component of magnitude and a component of free will on the part of the presumably dead party.  To make a ridiculously extreme example to illustrate the point:

I create spirit-based force ward that essentially punches someone with a normal punch (1 stress).  Some mortal walks up to my door and tries to open it.  He gets lightly punched in the nose.  He tries again.  Gets punched again.  Tries again...  Several minutes (at least) and consequences later, he tries for the last time, and has essentially gotten himself beaten to death.

Sure, there's such a thing as accidents that would count as unintentionally violating the first law - negligent homicide/manslaughter, to use the analogous US legal terms.  But if I put a reinforced steel door on my house and someone beats his head against it until he's dead...yeah, totally not my fault.  If Harry used his "Flickum Bicus" spell to light a candle, and some guy with TNT strapped to his chest looked at the candle, pondered for a moment, and then threw himself onto it, I'm pretty sure that wouldn't count as a first law violation either.

[Wyrdrune]

i think i remember a line in the wards section of thaumaturgy about landmines that says something like "beware of breaking the first law if you overdo it". can't tell the page as i have no books with me at the moment.

[sinker]

I create spirit-based force ward that essentially punches someone with a normal punch (1 stress).  Some mortal walks up to my door and tries to open it.  He gets lightly punched in the nose.  He tries again.  Gets punched again.  Tries again...  Several minutes (at least) and consequences later, he tries for the last time, and has essentially gotten himself beaten to death.

Sure, there's such a thing as accidents that would count as unintentionally violating the first law - negligent homicide/manslaughter, to use the analogous US legal terms.  But if I put a reinforced steel door on my house and someone beats his head against it until he's dead...yeah, totally not my fault.  If Harry used his "Flickum Bicus" spell to light a candle, and some guy with TNT strapped to his chest looked at the candle, pondered for a moment, and then threw himself onto it, I'm pretty sure that wouldn't count as a first law violation either.

The only issue I have with your first example is that your magic still killed him. I agree on your second example because they chose to do it AND your magic didn't kill him, the TNT did. However to expand that same example, what say you lit a magic campfire, completely magic flames that didn't use fuel and someone jumps in it and burns to death. Same basic concept, someone else is choosing to burn to death, however it's your magic, the inner core of you that's burning him (Or in the above example beating him to death).

[Ranma1558]

For the most part intent should be considered for the supernatural power at least (the council might think otherwise). You make a ward that no reasonable person should be able to kill themselves on and someone does, you don't become a "law breaker".

[Belial666]

Or, you know, cast 2 wards both keyed with human blood. One is keyed to only affect humans and is crafted not to reflect anything, and the other affects everything but humans and is crafted to be very lethal.

[Raiden333]

Or, you know, cast 2 wards both keyed with human blood. One is keyed to only affect humans and is crafted not to reflect anything, and the other affects everything but humans and is crafted to be very lethal.

Sir, I find your ideas intriguing and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.