Wards and the First Law

[Jack B]

Is it a violation of the First Law of magic (don't kill with magic) if someone dies from trying to break into your warded place?

I play a wizard and in our campaign there is a war going on between the red vampires and the white counsel.  My guy has some pretty heavy duty wards set up to keep intruders out but should I nerf them so that they can't (shouldn't) kill anybody?  It doesn't seem very health conscious on my part if I do that though.

Here are a couple ways that I thought might justify the wards:

- If I set up the basic ward that redirects energy so that the attacker's own energy kills him, it's the enemy's own attack and not my ward's that did him in.  Is that right?

- If I set up a booby trap ward to explode when only say red court vampires try to take it down then that's okay to because they are not human and the booby trap wouldn't spring on humans (unless the RCV had a human shield).

[sinker]

That's an awesome question that I have little answer to. Dresden never seems to worry about it though, his wards could totally kill someone.

[MijRai]

Yes, a ward would break a Law. Don't read this if you haven't read Changes yet, but

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Harry had to disable his wards for when the FBI broke in, otherwise it might've killed them. Which is bad.

You can tie a Ward to prevent certain things, if you have something of that kind of thing. Get some Red Court ichor (not sure if it is actually blood) and you could make a ward that stops them alone. I suggest going on a monster killing spree, gathering samples for your wards. Get some ghoul blood, Red ichor, etc. Tie them all to your ward, so that you don't have to worry about killing someone. Add a nerfed ward as well, that works on humans and whatever you missed in your uber-ward (immobilization could be good).

[Belial666]

Actually, go entirely the other way around.

Get a human, and set "being human" as the key to pass through the ward unharmed. That way, every monster would trigger the ward but every human would not.


The obvious weakness here is that the Red Court could use hired/blackmailed/dominated human thugs to attack.

[sinker]

Yes, a ward would break a Law. Don't read this if you haven't read Changes yet, but

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Harry had to disable his wards for when the FBI broke in, otherwise it might've killed them. Which is bad.

Right, forgot about that bit.

[Jack B]

That's exactly it.  I don't want thugs to get me either. 

I do remember that scene from Changes and I would think Harry would worry about his landlady as well.  You would think that she would have a key but Harry, as far as I know, never gave her a charm to pass his wards safely.

So it looks like the basic ward is the best.  That way it won't let anybody in but won't hurt them either unless they actually attack it.  And if they do that 'it's not my fault'

[Morfedel]

Yes, a ward would break a Law. Don't read this if you haven't read Changes yet, but

(click to show/hide)

Harry had to disable his wards for when the FBI broke in, otherwise it might've killed them. Which is bad.

You can tie a Ward to prevent certain things, if you have something of that kind of thing. Get some Red Court ichor (not sure if it is actually blood) and you could make a ward that stops them alone. I suggest going on a monster killing spree, gathering samples for your wards. Get some ghoul blood, Red ichor, etc. Tie them all to your ward, so that you don't have to worry about killing someone. Add a nerfed ward as well, that works on humans and whatever you missed in your uber-ward (immobilization could be good).

Don't be so sure. Dresden may not have been thinking, "Oh crap, I'll be a lawbreaker for sure!" so much as, "Oh crap, I don't want some innocent FBI agent just doing his or her job getting flatlined for pulling the wrong straw on the wrong day!"

Harry's also a decent guy. Not every concern he has about someone dying is about his being afraid of losing his head. Sometimes it's because he's a decent guy.

Whether it's actually lawbreaking though? Hard to say. Although I'd argue on intent, here, the fact that the rulebook comments on blowing someone off a building with an airblast is lawbreaking. Then again, I don't think the rulebook said, whether it was commenting on the intent of blowing someone off the wall.

For example... if I kill someone with a fireblast, that's lawbreaking. If I blow someone off a building with an air blast, that's lawbreaking.

But if I set a building on fire, but the fire itself is nonmagical, and THAT ends up killing someone a few minutes down the road, is THAT lawbreaking?

For that matter, a rather aggressive ward designed for defense - if a particularly nasty defense - is that lawbreaking?

I'm torn either way, honestly. Jim Butcher's books don't address it in specific detail, and neither does the rulebook. I'd say, if you set it up knowing that mortals might be coming and triggering them, then yes, it's lawbreaking, but if it was an accidental and unintended side effect, then no... but Morgan might disagree

And frankly, I can see it either way, so I don't aggressively stand by my statement here

[Scaramanga]

For example... if I kill someone with a fireblast, that's lawbreaking. If I blow someone off a building with an air blast, that's lawbreaking.

But if I set a building on fire, but the fire itself is nonmagical, and THAT ends up killing someone a few minutes down the road, is THAT lawbreaking?

This is purely supposition, but I always thought this was why Wardens carried swords: mundane killing is A-OK, magical killing is not.


With regards to wards, couldn't the ward be keyed to intent or action? For example: if someone was trying to break down your door (as opposed to just knocking on it.) Otherwise wouldn't Harry have vaporized any door-to-door sales people or the like before now?

[Belial666]

Yes, it IS your fault Laws-wise. Making a ward is like making this huge Wall of Fire, only making it invisible and innocuous. Anyone trying to cross it or attack it with conventional weapons gets horribly burned the more they try to pass through. If they die, it's your magic that killed them according to the letter of the law and your magic that killed them according to the spirit of the law as well (not that it matters)


The way to get rid of all attaks is manifold;

1) Erect a Veil of strength 10 or so. No mortal could see through that even if they rolled a +4. So they can't find your house or they think your house is insignificant (if you get the "I am not here" version of veil). Monsters with high perception or sensory powers could still see it if they looked for it but that's just your first line of defense.

2) Use conjuration magic to conjure a dome of steel five feet thick over your house. I don't think even the main gun of a battleship could pierce that. When you want to enter or leave, use minor teleportation (more on that later).

3) Use another veil to make your fortified dome invisible. You don't want to draw attention.

4) Erect a Ward of significant strength under your dome of steel. Key the ward to a specific password or key, preferably one they can't find, but make it passable by mortals. Most mortals would be stopped by the invisible steel dome anyway.

5) Erect a Ward to prevent travel from the Nevernever except to those with a key.

6) Beneath the Wards erect several landmines. Landmines for monsters should blast them with whatever type of destructive energy you most like. Landmines for humans should be beefed up sleep spells or paralysis spells that disable them without violating the laws. Make as many landmines as you can afford the effort - landmines could be cast at your minimum complexity with 2-minute rituals but spending a few hours doing so could add dozens of them. Note that, unlike the Ward that reflects attacks until it fails, each landmine is single-use.

7) After the blasting/sleeping Landmines, create a circle of other "landmines" that open Gateways to the Nevernever when the other protections fail, forming a circle of gateways turned outwards. Basically, a wall of gateways. Because anything aimed at the gateways would simply be transported to the Nevernever instead of finding a barrier it can attack, the Wall of Gateways can only be overcome by dispelling, digging under it, flying over it, teleporting, or waiting for it to dissipate on its own. It is a way to give you more time to make your escape or prepare for battle.

Make several binding circles with controlled summoned creatures, animated objects/golems or the walking dead in them, with orders to get out and attack in case their circles are breached. That is yet another line of defense to give you more time to prepare for battle or flee while weakening the enemy.

9) This is the most important; make an enchanted item with a minor teleportation effect of only 1 zone or so but multiple uses/session. Because your own threshold and wards do not block you, you could use it to pass them and the steel dome is not going to stop that kind of journey. Essentially, you'll be using the item to eschew any need to "lower your shields" when you move in and out of the warded house; there would never be a time that the shields would be lowered and you would never have to stand still before your door to unlock it and lower the wards, which is a huge invite for sniper fire.

The above is a pretty comprehensive (but not complete) series of defenses. It will stop mild to moderate offenses but not any really serious efforts by strong opposition. It also lacks certain details such as a method to prevent being cut off with a big enough circle, defenses tailored to deal with magic-immune opponents, defenses tailored to deal with opponents completely immune to damage, counter-counterspells, a method to prevent The Sight from piercing the veils and several others.
The defenses in a serious wizarding stronghold (i.e. the tower at Archangel or the wards of Edinburg) are at least three times as extensive as the above in nature and dozens of times more extensive in both power and numbers of wardings.

[sinker]

Something just occurred to me. If you think about the laws as less laws of the physical universe and more laws of human behavior this makes a lot more sense. Think about it this way.

Your wizard's wards accidently fry some insurance salesman. Now you're upset and you try to rationalize it so that you don't have to deal with the harsh reality that you just took a valuable human life. So you think "It was the wards that did it. If he hadn't knocked extra hard on the door he would have been fine." So the next time you are in a fight you think "Well, maybe I can create an offensive shield. I'm still defending myself and they only die if they attack me." Now you're killing attackers on a regular basis and you still have to rationalize it, to make it ok. After a while of that maybe you start killing people before they attack you, when they start menacing you or pulling weapons, you're still defending yourself, so (in your mind) it's ok. More time passes and you see a lot of people die and maybe you start thinking "Well, clearly these mortals die so easily they can't be worth much, if one dies and it improves my life what's the big deal?" And then you're laughing maniacally while hundreds die before you.

This is the stuff Dresden stays up at night worrying about as he is a lawbreaker.

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He wonders if he even inadvertently killed people at the party in grave peril. Or if killing any FBI guys would further twist him.

It's subtle and insidious. As stated in side jobs there is no satellite that picks up black magic. A warlock could be practicing for a very long time before someone notices (Although not once he gets to the hundreds dieing part).

[MyNinjaH8sU]

Something just occurred to me. If you think about the laws as less laws of the physical universe and more laws of human behavior this makes a lot more sense. Think about it this way.

Your wizard's wards accidently fry some insurance salesman. Now you're upset and you try to rationalize it so that you don't have to deal with the harsh reality that you just took a valuable human life. So you think "It was the wards that did it. If he hadn't knocked extra hard on the door he would have been fine." So the next time you are in a fight you think "Well, maybe I can create an offensive shield. I'm still defending myself and they only die if they attack me." Now you're killing attackers on a regular basis and you still have to rationalize it, to make it ok. After a while of that maybe you start killing people before they attack you, when they start menacing you or pulling weapons, you're still defending yourself, so (in your mind) it's ok. More time passes and you see a lot of people die and maybe you start thinking "Well, clearly these mortals die so easily they can't be worth much, if one dies and it improves my life what's the big deal?" And then you're laughing maniacally while hundreds die before you.

This is the stuff Dresden stays up at night worrying about as he is a lawbreaker.

(click to show/hide)

He wonders if he even inadvertently killed people at the party in grave peril. Or if killing any FBI guys would further twist him.

It's subtle and insidious. As stated in side jobs there is no satellite that picks up black magic. A warlock could be practicing for a very long time before someone notices (Although not once he gets to the hundreds dieing part).

And this, friends, is why the Wardens carry swords instead of executing with Magic. Magic is about belief and emotion. If you exercise your power over others to that degree, you are basically playing god, because your Will is directly violating a life.

The above is a perfect example of why, at least in my game, there would be no question that this violates the first law.

[Scaramanga]

And this, friends, is why the Wardens carry swords instead of executing with Magic. Magic is about belief and emotion. If you exercise your power over others to that degree, you are basically playing god, because your Will is directly violating a life.

I'd almost argue that a ward like that is worse, in that it's entirely indiscriminate. Which IMO shows a worse lack of regard for how ones magic effects others. It's like leaving a live grenade around for the neighborhood kids to pick up.

[Belial666]

That is why a submerged wizard is better to have Lawbreaker 2 already. He's as twisted about the 1st Law as he would ever be. Kill away!

[Ranma1558]

Just my own two cents, a ward that did nothing but reflect any attack on it would be breaking the first law if it killed someone. Good news though, most beings (even in game) would have a nearly impossible chance of killing themselves with their own strength used against them, especially since they'd likely only be hit once before the lesson is learned. Put a human who tries to bust down a door (ward) he might hit with 4 or 5 shifts, but a moderate consequence will soak that right up. In the end he gets a broken nose and becomes very hesitant of doing anything to said wizard.

[Kaldra]

i agree with ranma on this one for the most part humans aint going to kill themselves with the stength they would be throwing at a ward, now an enemy spellcaster who is throwing a 15 shift fireball at your 16 shift ward is going to hate life on a whole difrent level since that fireball is bouncing back at him. now would the fireball bouncing back killing the caster give you lawbreaker or would it give the already dead guy law breaker?