Transform Cafe into Forest

[cgodfrey7]

One possibility I see in the future of my game is that an Aztec Shaman will want to avenge his sister's death by luring the PCs into a jungle terrain with animals and so forth.  There is a restaurant called the Rainforest Cafe that some of you may have heard of, just imagine some real plants, lots of plastic trees, a waterfall, fake stuffed animals that occasionally move and emit animal noises, live fish in cylinders, amid the eating area, bar, and gift shop. 

If the shaman wanted to change the Rainforest Cafe into a "real" jungle with "real" animals for a mortal lifetime, assuming he was going to perform ritual sacrifices in the restaurant to accomplish this, how would he accomplish it?  Transformation magic through thaumaturgy I assume.  Would he have to have Sponsored magic and ring up a huge debt then pay it off with the sacrifices, or could he do it "on his own" using the sacrifices?  By the way, do you think a reasonable "size" for the restaurant would be 12 zones (3 zones by 4 zones?)  Would the effect start in one zone and spread, or would we need to add 24 shifts (2 per zone expansion, no books with me right now)?  How many shifts of power do you think it would take to accomplish this? 

[Becq]

Hard to know where to begin.  It seems as though Transformation magic would have to be at the core, but I think you would also need to Summon and Bind some form of spirits into the animals to give them "life".  (I put that in quotes because even at best, they will not be real animals, but spirits possessing the bodies you provided them.)  I think that technically, you'd have to individually change each object, though that seems like overkill.

I don't suppose overlaying the restaurant with a really nice illusion/glamour would be sufficient?  That would be much, much easier...

[cgodfrey7]

This is close enough to a panther.  If we use Conjuration skill, my home approach to this is +7 shifts for medium animate, then 1 shift for every skill and 2 shifts per refresh point, so


High Concept: Mountain Lion
Other:
Silent Killer
Scaredy Cat

Skills:

Superb: Stealth,                              1 x 5 shifts       
Great: Athletics, Fists,                      2 x 4 shifts
Good: Endurance, Intimidate,             2 x 3 shifts
Fair: Alertness, Survival,                   2 x 2 shifts
Average: Discipline, Might, Presence,  3 x 1 shift

Powers:

Claws [-1]                                      2 x 1 shift
Echoes of the Beast [-1]                   2 x 1 shift
Inhuman Strength [-2]                      2 x 2 shifts
Inhuman Speed [-2]                         2 x 2 shifts

Total Refresh: -6

Stress:

Mental: OO
Physical: OOOO
Social: OOO
Armor: 0.

So 45 shifts to summon the "panther" using conjuration.  If we add another 2 shifts, we would get a handful, 4 shifts would give us maybe a dozen, 6 shifts would give us enough to fill central park if I remember correctly.  So call it 49 shifts to summon 12 panthers, again using my homegrown method to calculate the cost based on what I remember from conjuration and what I came up with earlier.  Hmmm...add in 12 shifts for lasting a mortal lifetime?  Something similar could be done for the apes, snakes, and birds.  Maybe 244 shifts as an approximation to get 1 dozen panthers, 1 dozen apes, 2-4 dozen snakes, and probably 4 dozen birds. 

Maybe the transformation is done first, then the conjuration.   So, how would the transformation work?  I really want something permanent, not an illusion at this point.  However, now that you have my curiousity aroused, what would it be for an illusion? 

[MyNinjaH8sU]

Hw about spatial transposition? They walk into the cafe, and unknowingly enter a jungle site in the never never, that the cafe has been superimposed on, becoming more feral as they walk further in, the entrance closing behind them as part of the trap. How long before they even realize they are not in Kansas anymore?

Has the advantage of being much easier mechanically, and with a little more to potential to work with. What do you think?

[devonapple]

Hw about spatial transposition? They walk into the cafe, and unknowingly enter a jungle site in the never never, that the cafe has been superimposed on, becoming more feral as they walk further in, the entrance closing behind them as part of the trap. How long before they even realize they are not in Kansas anymore? Has the advantage of being much easier mechanically, and with a little more to potential to work with. What do you think?

You mean... we could use the Demesne power?

[Tbora]

You mean... we could use the Demesne power?

Pretty much, which would give the Aztec dude a big advantage with "for free" declaration.

[cgodfrey7]

That would be cool, but how do you set up a permanent portal thingy then?  Thought nature fought against those things.  Not familiar with the Demense spell/idea.  Wow, great ideas, still would like to know about the actual transformation, the illusion/glamour idea, and now the Demense idea.  

[Tbora]

That would be cool, but how do you set up a permanent portal thingy then?  Thought nature fought against those things.  Not familiar with the Demense spell/idea.  Wow, great ideas, still would like to know about the actual transformation, the illusion/glamour idea, and now the Demense idea. 

Simple - its for an NPC yes?

In which case plot device it, or if you don't want to do that, call it a 30 something shift ritual to open a permanent portal to the Nevernever.

[cgodfrey7]

It is for an NPC, I am just trying to enhance my understanding of how the different magic things work, because half of what I may do one of my PCs may turn around and ask "How did you do that?"  and I want to be able to give a metagame answer that makes sense in case they want to try something similar in the future.

[devonapple]

It is for an NPC, I am just trying to enhance my understanding of how the different magic things work, because half of what I may do one of my PCs may turn around and ask "How did you do that?"  and I want to be able to give a metagame answer that makes sense in case they want to try something similar in the future.

True. The DFRPG took the time to stat out Victor Sells' famous ritual, so the spirit of the game does include figuring these things out, in case someone wants to pull the Sue maneuver.

[Sanctaphrax]

There's really nothing in the books about this sort of ritual. So I'd just pick an arbitrary complexity of 13 or so and modify it for duration and area. Speaking of area, I don't think that 12 zones is a reasonable size for a restaurant. 2 to 4 would be what I'd say. The size of a zone is fairly unclear, but since most guns have a range of only 2 or 3 zones I wouldn't make a restaurant that big.

I think you're overvaluing the panther creation spell. 45 shifts is a LOT. Think of what else you could do with that.

PS: Is this the same shaman that you asked me to stat up?

[cgodfrey7]

Yes this is the same shaman I asked you to stat up.  I am not sure if I overvalued the conjuration, but to get all of the instincts and special abilities created out of ectoplasm to last for more than say 15 minutes, shrug.  I would love to see someone else's take on how to arrive at the number of shifts required for skills and refresh "powers". 

[devonapple]

Yes this is the same shaman I asked you to stat up.  I am not sure if I overvalued the conjuration, but to get all of the instincts and special abilities created out of ectoplasm to last for more than say 15 minutes, shrug.  I would love to see someone else's take on how to arrive at the number of shifts required for skills and refresh "powers".  

Edited: Summoning things is supposed to be tanatamount to either a magically enhanced Contacts roll, or a plot device. I would imagine Conjuring would work somewhat the same?

The rules are vague on how to balance summoned creature. The drift on this forum varies between:
a) just get enough shifts to overcome the creature's Conviction (YS p 273) and it'll be fine, or
b) add in additional modifiers based on the creature's Refresh cost.

I would not feel compelled to buy each skill-level component of the creature as a separate shift of power.

[devonapple]

I see a few options:
Run this as a Summoning, but call it a spirit of hunger, or an animal spirit, creating its own ectoplasmic body.

Run it as a Conjuration+Summoning:
7 shifts for a medium-sized intricate animate object
4 shifts to make it look more believable

8 shifts for a Legendary warding circle
5 shifts to overcome its Mediocre Conviction
14 ranks to bind it to your will ("take it out" in a mental conflict)

This approach is 38 ranks, but the first 11 ranks may not be necessary, as spirits usually make their own ectoplasmic forms. This gives you control over how it looks, though, if making a convincing creature is a priority. I'm not sure it's the finished answer for your needs though.

[cgodfrey7]

For taking it out mentally, 3 (to overcome 2 mental base) + 2 mild + 4 medium + 6 severe + 8 extreme, um 23...
As for the overcome Mediocre conviction, why 5? 
Different possibility, apply 6 shifts to get 20 skill points and 6 refresh, or 7 shifts for 25 skill points and 7 refresh, or 8 shifts etc.?