Limits on magic.

[Bruce Coulson]

In the case of the volcano, placing the Aspect 'Erupting' ought to do it...

Mechanically, this is a transformation (from inactive to active) aided by the fact that volcanoes do this sort of thing, so you're not fighting the basic nature of the object.  Still, you're 'taking out' a large amount of rock, so figure the metric tons to be released from the volcano in the eruption, decide how much stress each ton can take (2 plus Hulking Size?), do some calculations for your damage, and voila!

Oh, and you might want to have some plan in place for handling the Wardens who will be arriving wanting to know what happened.  Unless your volcano is in a completely uninhabitated area, you're quite likely to be killing a few people from pyroclastic flows, superheated gasesses, etc.

For our 5000 shifts, figuring 4 shifts/ton, that gives 1250 metric tons.  Which isn't much of a blast.  But what if we add explosive to the aspect and shifts? That lets us shift it up to...hmmm...10,000 metric tons.  Which still is piddling.

But, what if we contact/bargain with/bind a powerful spirit from the Never-Never?  5000 shifts of power is plenty of room for binding...or a bargaining chip for an eruption.  That's probably a better way to go.

[Lanodantheon]

My opinion for the destructive magics aside from Plot-device powerful stuff is simple, Evocations with tagged Aspects. They're Evocations done as Thaumaturgy, but Evocations nonetheless.

You are just tagging the Aspects Satellite Dresden or Volcano or similarly performing Maneuvers before-hand to prepare the devices and then pumping a lot of shifts into.

Key fact: With stuff this large, you are not in a position to care about Fallout. So that can also be a factor.

[MyNinjaH8sU]

...each thaumaturgy exchange is 20 seconds...

See, that's why the rules are vague in my opinion. In freaking combat the exchange rate (i made a funny!) is anywhere between a few seconds and a few minutes each. So when my players want to perform rituals, I just consider the complexity a vague guideline. In fact, until you get into the ridiculously large number range (which I know is what we are talking about), I just consider each exchange to be a number of minutes equal to the complexity of the ritual.

Complexity 4 Tracking Spell that you finish in 1 exchange? 4 minutes.

Heart exploding spell, complexity 30ish that takes you 8 exchanges to finish, while seriously pushing yourself? 4 Hours.

Think about Storm Front, and Dresden feeling the energy of Victor Sell's spell building as the storm grows closer. I love that notion.

[Belial666]

On the other hand, we got a 26-shift entropy curse that is about finished in a couple of minutes and Victor Sells summoning a demon (10 shifts summoning?) in under a minute while Harry is ducking behind a sofa. Harry similarly casts a Ward enough to block said demon in the time it takes the demon to break his basement door and tracking spells fast enough before an arsonist has time to flee a couple of blocks.

[MyNinjaH8sU]

On the other hand, we got a 26-shift entropy curse that is about finished in a couple of minutes and Victor Sells summoning a demon (10 shifts summoning?) in under a minute while Harry is ducking behind a sofa. Harry similarly casts a Ward enough to block said demon in the time it takes the demon to break his basement door and tracking spells fast enough before an arsonist has time to flee a couple of blocks.

The Entropy Curse had a lot of things going on with it, and some serious concerted effort by multiple people. I would personally allow something to be done quicker if there were several people working on it.

As for Victor's demon, I could just as easily see it as already summoned, and (woo game mechanics) Victor spending a Fate point for a fortuitous arrival, or simply having him appear because he was already bound and watching from the other side just out of reach. If that was the case, it was less a summoning and more an evocation to open a Way to the Nevernever. That's easily doable in a round.

Concerning Harry's Ward: it's been a while since I read the book, but weren't they standing in the prepared circle Harry had, designed for summoning? Perhaps he already had a Ward in place, and simply put forth some power to activate it. (which would be a rockin declaration)

Tracking spell on the fly? The dude has just left? The actual difficulty of that roll would be really low, 2-3 shifts I'd think in a regular investigation roll, and 2 minutes isn't that bad of a lead in a scene like that.

---------

To clarify, I'm not saying I disagree with you, just offering alternate game explanations for these things. The most important thing is always going to be the drama of the scene and what is the most fun to have happen. That will always supersede hard and fast rules.

That said, I like the complexity::minute ratio. It sets a semblance of time for the players, so that they have some idea of how long things will take before they ask. Also, if Thaumaturgy is interesting because of drama and creativity induced by either a time limit or creative description, then this always places a time factor on it, and brings that idea more readily to the forefront.

[Ryan_Singer]

So, the power is probably there. But how are we doing the mechanics of using it? How would you force a volcano to erupt if you had 5.000 shifts of power available?

#zones*2.... Let's assume that a four zone square is = 1 square NYC block. 20 square NYC blocks = 1 square mile. Let's say it affects an area of 2 square miles. That's 160 zones, or 320 shifts.

+

Duration. A volcano erupting causes major problems for humans hanging out for about two days. Let's describe this as a "heat and poison gases" aspect on the area. We'll call it a very powerful maneuver on the scene. 5 shifts for the intense maneuver, and then 6 shifts to bring it from "one scene" to a few days.

+

One time damage. I'd say 20 shifts are enough here.

=

351 shifts?

[Belial666]

A volcanic eruption heavily affects most buildings in a 5-mile radius at least. That's 78 square miles or so. Also, minor volcanic eruptions have enough force behind them to blast apart mile-thick pieces of rock. That's a bit over 20 shifts of damage. So, say 3120 shifts for the primary area effect, 500-1000 shifts for the damage and a couple hundred shifts to make a conjuration equivalent for the dust and falling pieces of rock and acid rain (instead of an aspect that has to be compelled to work instead of working automatically like environmental dangers should.

Krakatoa created shockwaves and tsunamis that killed people hundreds of miles away. But that is probably a secondary effect - if you make a 5-mile-radius blast with your spell, you cannot expect its force to dissipate with no side effects at all.

EDIT:
The spell might look like that;

Raise Volcano
Thaumaturgy Disruption 5000 shifts.
With this massive spell fueled by ridiculous preparations on your part (or the quick and dirty method of sacrificing 250 individuals) you call upon the very might of the Earth and unleash it upon a dormant volcano. The force of your spell blasts apart the path to the magma chamber below, throwing massive amounts of rock, acid and noxious fumes into the air, simulating a volcanic eruption. Tremendous backlash shakes the earth both from the force of the explosion itself and from additional power intentionally put into it and the stored energy of the volcano is unleashed prematurely. At the very least, you can make a town-sized hole into a normal mountain. In most normal volcanoes, amounts of magma and naturally produced gases follow but with little force of their own. In cases the volcano is unstable and/or has amassed significant energy, the fury of the Earth is raised, your prodding unleashing all said energy into a major, catastrophic blast of volcanic awesome. Bring lots of popcorn and body bags.
1000 points of fire/force damage, affects 1500 zones, creates 200 shifts worth of stone, acid and fumes sread by the force of the explosion, 800 shifts of Earth backlash (this is intentional backlash).

[mostlyawake]

The average cult leader has a serious problem with really big rituals. To control power, you need Discipline rolls.


So, the power is probably there. But how are we doing the mechanics of using it? How would you force a volcano to erupt if you had 5.000 shifts of power available?

Use half the aspects tags on power, half on your discipline roll.

[Belial666]

Unfortunately, you cannot do that. Ritual preparation allows you to tag aspects and build up complexity. Ritual casting on the other hand has to be continious - and an aspect you create, unless otherwise noted, has to be tagged as soon as possible or lose the tag.

So if you created a bunch of aspects for discipline which you could tag in the first of 50+ rolls, but do not need to and choose not to, you lose the tags.

[devonapple]

Unfortunately, you cannot do that. Ritual preparation allows you to tag aspects and build up complexity. Ritual casting on the other hand has to be continious - and an aspect you create, unless otherwise noted, has to be tagged as soon as possible or lose the tag.

So if you created a bunch of aspects for discipline which you could tag in the first of 50+ rolls, but do not need to and choose not to, you lose the tags.

It's hard to draw the line, though, because Thaumaturgic preparations (referred to as an "uber-declaration") are treated like both an Assessment (requires time to complete) and a Declaration (in that it allows you to create Aspects which didn't exist before).

Maneuvers, as we know, create fragile or sticky Aspects which are temporary and "always go away at the end of a conflict or scene" (YS 115), and must be tagged relatively immediately to get the free bonus.

Assessments (YS 115) "However, you’re often going to use assessment as a way to prepare for a future encounter, which may not happen for several scenes. So, if you’ve discovered an aspect this way, you don’t have to worry about the usual time limit (page 106) for tagging until the first scene where you encounter the target of your assessment. Aspects discovered in this fashion are still present after these time limits expire, so they can still be invoked later."

Declarations (YS 116) "As with maneuvering (page 207) and assessment (above), the resulting aspect can be tagged. Unlike assessment, declaration doesn’t take any actual in-game time at all—just successful use of a knowledge skill at the right moment... As with assessments, aspects created with declarations don’t go away after being tagged, so long as circumstances make it reasonable that they hang around. This does mean that occasionally assessments and declarations can backfire on the character establishing them (other characters might use the same aspect, or the GM might bring that aspect back around to complicate the character’s endeavors)."

The question here is whether Declarations used for Thaumaturgical prep need to be tagged relatively immediately, like Maneuver-based Aspects (because it isn't explicitly specified otherwise) or can be tagged when they come up, like Assessments (because it isn't explicitly specified otherwise). According to my reading, either choice has to be made in absence of an explicit rule (I'm sure there's a clever logic term for it).

[devonapple]

That said, Harry has been Compelled once to abandon all of his ritual prep

(click to show/hide)

to help out Molly

, as another user kindly pointed out to me as example, and had to start from scratch when he tried the ritual again, so it's reasonable to rule that the prep does "expire" if the caster is interrupted and can't complete the spell.

But the question here is: if uninterrupted and allowed to execute the ritual from start to finish, can the ritualist have created ritual preparation Declarations specifically for the Discipline checks, as well as Declarations for the Lore deficit?

[devonapple]

Would the question be moot if the ritual caster opted to make the Discipline check Declarations during the Control process, rather than in the ritual preparation montage? The GM would have to adjudicate these Declarations with appropriate difficulty ranks, of course.

[Belial666]

As I was saying, you cannot stop to make declarations during the control process at all - otherwise the spell blows in your face.

As for discipline declarations/assessments, we don't know either way for discipline - but we don't have an example where such are used while we do have examples where Complexity declarations are used. So I tend to err on the side of caution.

Besides, if you allowed one to eschew the control for their rituals through aspects, the guy that spent more refresh on thaumaturgy than evocation would have done so for nothing.