Author Topic: How to reach Dresden level health status  (Read 16016 times)

Offline finnmckool

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Re: How to reach Dresden level health status
« Reply #45 on: June 19, 2011, 02:52:16 PM »
But the book specifically calls it a social attack and a social defense skill and social damage. That's what it says. I'm not arguing against Fred here, I'm just saying, maneuvers are great and all, but if they were the best thing since sliced bread and were my bread and butter then why do I have social attack and defense skills. Not social skills that oppose each other, mind you, but skills the book specifically labels "Your social attack" and "your social defense"?

Offline Khalis231

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Re: How to reach Dresden level health status
« Reply #46 on: June 19, 2011, 02:58:34 PM »
I can see it happening though.  In a fight, people's egos are particularly exposed.  A high deceit roll like "I killed your father," would be a wonderful attack.  Sure, it can be a maneuver to place an aspect.  But you could also be socially damaging a character and forcing a consequence like "Enraged" (which, while it can be an aspect is also a rather potent social consequence).

Yes, bullets work very fast.  Much faster than swords.  Much faster than fists.  Much faster than feet.  They're a poor time reference.  Combat exchanges aren't a set time.  They're fluid.

I think we could all come up with a lot of examples that could be conceptualized as both a maneuver and as a social attack. It's not that insults and such as social attacks are inconceivable, it's just that maneuvers seem to be a more elegant, realistic and balanced way to integrate them into a combat setting. If social stress and consequences can be dealt in the midst of a fight, then physical combat skills and powers become highly devalued, because they're no longer necessary. Why bother with that eight-box stress track when you can instead attack that BCV's three-box social track instead? Mental attacks are dangerous enough (and, as I've mentioned in a previous post, are only possible via powers that explicitly provide the ability to attack the mental stress track, while no similar powers exist for the social stress track).

My last post in this thread pretty much sums up how I feel about which method the books seem to encourage. There's never an explicit "Thou Shalt Not Deal Social Stress in Physical Combat," but the general guideline seems to be that physical, mental and social conflicts are separate and distinct entities, barring specific exceptions like Incite Emotion that allow for crossover.

Offline Khalis231

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Re: How to reach Dresden level health status
« Reply #47 on: June 19, 2011, 03:02:39 PM »
But the book specifically calls it a social attack and a social defense skill and social damage. That's what it says. I'm not arguing against Fred here, I'm just saying, maneuvers are great and all, but if they were the best thing since sliced bread and were my bread and butter then why do I have social attack and defense skills. Not social skills that oppose each other, mind you, but skills the book specifically labels "Your social attack" and "your social defense"?

Because these are the skills that you use to attack and defend in a social conflict! Social conflicts are outlined on YS 215, after the rules for physical conflicts. Social conflicts use Empathy to determine initiative, rather than Alertness (which is a big sign, from my perspective, that social conflicts are meant to be an entirely different method of conflict resolution). A character with high social skills will be far from useless in a fight, as social skills can be used to maneuver, but really comes into his own in a social conflict, where his social skills can be used to directly attack the enemy.

Offline finnmckool

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Re: How to reach Dresden level health status
« Reply #48 on: June 19, 2011, 03:03:06 PM »
Well because you can't have skills in everything and you can't be good at everything. That monster may have no social track but you've not got that many points in snark. You put them all in Lore or Guns. But what it DOES do is allow the social skills heavy character some room in the fight with out having to dump some skills in a weapon they can only kinda use just so they have something to do in a fight, which, let's face it, comprises a really good portion of all but the most talkative games.

Offline finnmckool

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Re: How to reach Dresden level health status
« Reply #49 on: June 19, 2011, 03:08:19 PM »
Because these are the skills that you use to attack and defend in a social conflict! Social conflicts are outlined on YS 215, after the rules for physical conflicts. Social conflicts use Empathy to determine initiative, rather than Alertness (which is a big sign, from my perspective, that social conflicts are meant to be an entirely different method of conflict resolution). A character with high social skills will be far from useless in a fight, as social skills can be used to maneuver, but really comes into his own in a social conflict, where his social skills can be used to directly attack the enemy.

But why have them if they're so completely separate? Again, it becomes that bone you through your noble before the inevitable brawl with the equally inevitable thumb twiddling and cringing. Now, don't get me wrong. That's hyperbole. But it's valid hyperbole that services a point. Either social attacks are viable attacks that are integrated into the game play, which means it's silly that "shamed" can take the place of "broken ribs", or social attacks are to be completely relegated to a separate arena, which if that's the case, it drastically lowers its value as being part of the world as a whole. It becomes a mini-game. It's kind of like an rpg "separate but equal" argument and falls apart for similar reasons. Again, hyperbole, I'm not making a literal comparison and realize that I'm comparing trivialities and amusements to important stuff, I'm just trying to show a logical similarity, not a moral one, if you take my meaning.

Offline finnmckool

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Re: How to reach Dresden level health status
« Reply #50 on: June 19, 2011, 03:20:46 PM »
Not to mention the logic of "maneuver maneuver maneuver!" cuts both ways here. If you're that worried that your meaty murder monster has a glass ego then add a stunt or an aspect. I can't totally see something like "Too stupid to care" and having it be pretty neat all around. "Hey! My uncle the Erlking knows I'm here and if I don't make it home for supper he'll be PISSED!" Sorry. The minotaur is too stupid to care. "Hey. You're on fire." Sorry, the minotaur is too stupid to care. "Yeah but he's taking damage every round too right?" Yep. Because he's too stupid to care.

Or "above such mortal concerns." "Keep it up and every signatory of the accords will know you're an oath breaking so and so." The Denarian is above such mortal concerns. "I'm going to do something stupid and rush him to save my best friend." Well you sure surprised the heck outta him because he's above such mortal concerns and didn't see that coming.

Any way, point is, it can go either way.

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: How to reach Dresden level health status
« Reply #51 on: June 19, 2011, 03:22:00 PM »
I can see it happening though.  In a fight, people's egos are particularly exposed.  A high deceit roll like "I killed your father," would be a wonderful attack.  Sure, it can be a maneuver to place an aspect.  But you could also be socially damaging a character and forcing a consequence like "Enraged" (which, while it can be an aspect is also a rather potent social consequence).
I'd argue that "I killed your father." was the end result of a long chain of misinformation which also took advantage of one or more character aspects.  That's actually a good way to justify social attacks in combat though...a lot of work setting things up followed by the 'reveal' (and judicious use of fate points).  

One other comment though...I think we may have different ideas of what constitutes a social consequence.  To me, Enraged is a mental consequence.  Under some situations it may be followed by a social consequence some time later (Deeply Ashamed or possibly Abjectly Apologetic) but probably only after some points out what he's done in the form of a social attack.  (Though I'd consider converting mental or even physical consequences to social if the situation warranted it.  After all, you can't stay Enraged forever...takes too much energy.)

Quote
Yes, bullets work very fast.  Much faster than swords.  Much faster than fists.  Much faster than feet.  They're a poor time reference.  Combat exchanges aren't a set time.  They're fluid.
Fluid to a degree yes.  Just how fluid is dependent on each group.  :)

But why have them if they're so completely separate? Again, it becomes that bone you through your noble before the inevitable brawl with the equally inevitable thumb twiddling and cringing. Now, don't get me wrong. That's hyperbole. But it's valid hyperbole that services a point. Either social attacks are viable attacks that are integrated into the game play, which means it's silly that "shamed" can take the place of "broken ribs", or social attacks are to be completely relegated to a separate arena, which if that's the case, it drastically lowers its value as being part of the world as a whole. It becomes a mini-game. It's kind of like an rpg "separate but equal" argument and falls apart for similar reasons. Again, hyperbole, I'm not making a literal comparison and realize that I'm comparing trivialities and amusements to important stuff, I'm just trying to show a logical similarity, not a moral one, if you take my meaning.
You appear to be making a big assumption...that physical combat logically follows after social.  There are a variety of situations where physical combat isn't really an option.  Perhaps you want something other than death or injury.  (Consider trying to clear an unruly mob from a nightclub before the vamps show up.  Do you really want to attack them?  Convincing them to leave seems a better option.)  Perhaps the current situation prevents you from using force.  (Consider a trial.  
(click to show/hide)
)  Perhaps your opponent simply outclasses you.  (Pull a gun on the Winter Queen...then roll up a new character because she probably has a new hound.)  Or it could be some combination of those.

Just because social and physical combat may be separate doesn't mean one becomes useless.  It means you use the tool needed for the current job.  
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Offline finnmckool

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Re: How to reach Dresden level health status
« Reply #52 on: June 19, 2011, 03:22:25 PM »
Plus, if Chewbacca is a wookiee you must acquit. LOOK AT THE MONKEY! LOOK AT THE SILLY MONKEY!

Offline toturi

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Re: How to reach Dresden level health status
« Reply #53 on: June 19, 2011, 03:25:40 PM »
Perhaps your opponent simply outclasses you.  
If your opponent simply outclasses you, bend over and enjoy. Using a different tool doesn't work if your opponent simply outclasses you.
With your laws of magic, wizards would pretty much just be helpless carebears who can only do magic tricks. - BumblingBear

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: How to reach Dresden level health status
« Reply #54 on: June 19, 2011, 03:30:00 PM »
If your opponent simply outclasses you, bend over and enjoy. Using a different tool doesn't work if your opponent simply outclasses you.
Meh.  You're assuming the opponent wants you dead or injured.  Look at Harry's interactions with Mab as an example.  She wants something from him.  In the end, she appears to get it.  But there are books of social interaction leading up to that...

Could she have simply killed him?  Probably.  But that wouldn't have met her goals.  However, it was enough of a threat for Harry to avoid initiating open hostilities.
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Offline finnmckool

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Re: How to reach Dresden level health status
« Reply #55 on: June 19, 2011, 03:30:48 PM »
You appear to be making a big assumption...that physical combat logically follows after social.  There are a variety of situations where physical combat isn't really an option.  Perhaps you want something other than death or injury.  (Consider trying to clear an unruly mob from a nightclub before the vamps show up.  Do you really want to attack them?  Convincing them to leave seems a better option.)  Perhaps the current situation prevents you from using force.  (Consider a trial.  
(click to show/hide)
)  Perhaps your opponent simply outclasses you.  (Pull a gun on the Winter Queen...then roll up a new character because she probably has a new hound.)  Or it could be some combination of those.

Just because social and physical combat may be separate doesn't mean one becomes useless.  It means you use the tool needed for the current job.  

Oh I'm all kinds of aware that that's not how things always go. But you have to admit it is sort of the formula for a game. You chat. You banter. Hell breaks loose. I mean I realize it's an assumption, but come on. Is it really THAT big an assumption? Sure, it'd be nice if games were less formulaic, but hell even Nicodemus says it. "Once the fighting starts there's little room for conversation." Their fights are literally broken into social and physical attacks. Which I realize could be construed as points against me, but when you consider Dresden's final fight in Storm Front, "Hey Vic, it was your wife. She ratted you out." "NOOOOO!" Now, that didn't do anything but sorta distract Vic but it certainly did him some damage and allowed Dresden to deliver the coup de grace. Almost took him out really. And that was CERTAINLY a physical fight all the way to that point. All I'm saying is while I'm making format assumptions that this is how things go, you're making equal assumptions that it's not.

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: How to reach Dresden level health status
« Reply #56 on: June 19, 2011, 03:39:43 PM »
Another reason characters might limit themselves to social combat - courtesy.  Specifically old world courtesy and the Unseelie Accords.  You may just start a war if you initiate physical combat at the wrong time and place...

All I'm saying is while I'm making format assumptions that this is how things go, you're making equal assumptions that it's not.
Actually I've repeatedly said it's up to the group to decide what time frames are 'reasonable'.  I've also avoided any standard formulaic of X then Y.  All in an attempt to avoid assumptions. 

Each group needs to decide what works for them.  Rules are only a starting point.  And the title is "Your Story".   ;)
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Offline toturi

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Re: How to reach Dresden level health status
« Reply #57 on: June 19, 2011, 03:50:06 PM »
Meh.  You're assuming the opponent wants you dead or injured.  Look at Harry's interactions with Mab as an example.  She wants something from him.  In the end, she appears to get it.  But there are books of social interaction leading up to that...

Could she have simply killed him?  Probably.  But that wouldn't have met her goals.  However, it was enough of a threat for Harry to avoid initiating open hostilities.
I did not assume that the opponent want the character dead or injured. If an opponent outclasses you, it doesn't matter if you talk. He will outtalk you. It doesn't matter if you fight. He will outfight you. That is what being outclassed means.

Mab outclassed Harry, end result, Mab gets what she wants from Harry. It doesn't matter if Harry tried to punch her with a rusty nail or flapped his gums. He is outclassed.
With your laws of magic, wizards would pretty much just be helpless carebears who can only do magic tricks. - BumblingBear

Offline BumblingBear

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Re: How to reach Dresden level health status
« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2011, 06:30:52 PM »
This is one instance where I am going to go against RAW apparently - on the stress track thing.

I am not a hero - at least not anymore. ;P  But if I am dealing with a mental or social consequence, like... "Crushing worry about debt", and I were to get into a fight, I could still be "brusied", "ankle sprained", and "wrenched arm".  Those are three physical consequences on top of a social or mental consequence... and it's /realistic/.

I know it's a game, and I know that not all RAW are going to 100% emulate RL or canon, but come on.  We are playing heroes or villains.  I just don't jive with the party giving a bad guy a minor, moderate, and serious social consequence in an argument a couple of days before a battle....

And then the bad guy only having a minor physical consequence during the fight because his moderate and serious slots are filled up with social stuff.

To me, that makes no sense.

So now rather than argue that, I think it would be cool if someone  could get an official Fred word about social conflict during combat.
Myself: If I were in her(Murphy's) position, I would have studied my ass off on the supernatural and rigged up special weapons to deal with them.  Murphy on the other hand just plans to overpower bad guys with the angst of her short woman's syndrome and blame all resulting failures on Harry.

Offline Khalis231

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Re: How to reach Dresden level health status
« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2011, 07:42:16 PM »
This is one instance where I am going to go against RAW apparently - on the stress track thing.

I am not a hero - at least not anymore. ;P  But if I am dealing with a mental or social consequence, like... "Crushing worry about debt", and I were to get into a fight, I could still be "brusied", "ankle sprained", and "wrenched arm".  Those are three physical consequences on top of a social or mental consequence... and it's /realistic/.

It seems like you're looking at a given set of consequences as an objective measure of a person's fortitude. By this logic, taking a social consequence in lieu of a physical consequence would indeed seem to be nonsensical, because you certainly can still be "bruised," "ankle sprained" and "wrenched arm" on top of having a "crushing worry about debt."

Why stop there, though? In addition to being "bruised," "ankle sprained" and having a "wrenched arm," you could also easily acquire "lacerations" and "heavy burns." That's another two physical consequences, all of which could realistically coexist on a given person. Why should your three existing physical consequences limit your ability to acquire lacerations?

The answer (as I see it), is because consequences aren't an objective measure of your ability to absorb punishment. They're a narrative measure of your character's ability to affect the plot by deciding where and how much the enemy hurts him. Having a consequence slot taken up with "crushing worry about debt" doesn't mean your character can't suffer three or more physical injuries, it just means that the character doesn't have the protagonist-power to keep the opponent from deciding exactly how much injury they want to inflict via a taken-out result. It's not like the character has lost the ability to defend himself (that's represented by skills), the character just doesn't have as much narrative control in the greater context of the story.

So now rather than argue that, I think it would be cool if someone  could get an official Fred word about social conflict during combat.

I would also like, if not an official pronouncement, at least some insight into what the designers intended as far as interaction between different types of conflict are concerned. I hope my post hasn't come off as argumentative, talking this out is helping me develop my own understanding of how consequences work.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2011, 07:44:53 PM by Khalis231 »