Limits on magic.

[Belial666]

Mechanically speaking, how would you do the following considering that a single wizard or a couple of wizards cooperating did them?


1) A ward that stopped an entire army? Considerations include;
a; It must be big enough to affect an entire army ir at least block the battle lines.
b; It must be strong enough to stop outsiders and elder vampires of considerable power.
c; It must last long enough for another army to retreat.


2) Pulling a house-sized object from mid-orbit? Considerations include;
a; It is tens of thousands of miles away
b; It is the size of a house
c; Its trajectory was aimed with a few meters' accuracy
d; The wizard that did it may or may not have named it.

3) Making a volcano erupt?  Considerations include;
a; volcanic eruptions are freaking big. As in, thousands of megatons
b; a volcano is the size of a city and targeting it might or might not require enough zones to cover it
c; you need to be far enough to survive or leave right afterwards somehow

4) Causing a major earthquake?  Considerations include;
a; earthquakes are as energy-intensive as volcanoes, just pread over larger areas.
b; said large areas are the size of small countries
c; sympathetic links???

[Nyarlathotep5150]

   I think the last 2 might be rather easy. Most times, when someone wants to cause a natural disaster they aren't really looking for control. They just start it off and let the chaos ensue from there. So from a game rule perspective alot of the effects of those types of things could just be seen as fallout.

   The others I don't know. We don't really have a good idea of what the Blackstaff is capable of (or even really what it is), so its hard to figure.
   The only thing I can think to add to example one is that Zone size is pretty relative, so if, from the GM perspective, the point of the scene was to portray a Badass, "You shall not pass" moment, then he could have been nice and ruled that the whole army was in one zone (actually that possibility could apply to all of the examples I guess).

[Blackblade]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the soviet probe was quite a bit smaller than a house.

[Wilder]

Also remember that the last three can all be accomplished by thaumaturgy, which he had the time for. Also, prep isn't a factor due to the fact that McCoy proably had the time and  resources to really take his time and do it right. Don't forget, he has access to EVERYTHING the White Council has at its disposal.

[Belial666]

An upper limit for power even for Thaumaturgy would be your safely-controlled shifts per exchange times the number of exchanges you can stay awake and focused. If a thaumaturgy exchange is 20 seconds and one could control 6 shifts per exchange safely for a really powerful senior wizard, we are looking at 5000-10000 shifts of power. Is that enough for major earthquakes/volcanic eruptions?

[sinker]

   I think the last 2 might be rather easy. Most times, when someone wants to cause a natural disaster they aren't really looking for control. They just start it off and let the chaos ensue from there. So from a game rule perspective alot of the effects of those types of things could just be seen as fallout.

Agreed. It occurred to me that the volcano could simply be a maneuver to put the aspect "Volcano gods are angry" on the scene (Maybe extra shifts for the amount of ground needed covered) and then a few properly timed compels.

[Becq]

They are Plot Devices.  As such, there are no mechanics that can adequately describe them.  Players who try to throw around such magic should be mocked.

[wolff96]

They are Plot Devices.  As such, there are no mechanics that can adequately describe them.  Players who try to throw around such magic should be mocked.

Eh.  What about some of the spells that Harry has pulled off, then?  The wall of fire in White Night is the same kind of vulcanology on a smaller scale, as is

(click to show/hide)

the giant gravity effect in Changes, powered by the leyline.

  In both cases, he mentions that Earth Magic is hard to get going and difficult to stop once started.

The effects here -- other than the Ward, which I agree is NUTS -- aren't really as crazy as they seem. 

Volcano eruption?  Note that in the case of Krakatoa there was already a mountain there and it was a former volcano.  All he really had to do was provide some fissures to allow the pressure to begin escaping -- nature will handle the rest.  I think we would all agree that a little earth magic can crack a few rocks, right?  It takes frighteningly small shifts in a mountain for a 'dormant' volcano to become active again if the magma hotspot is still there...

Earthquake?  Same deal as the Volcano.  The pressure is already there.  The potential builds up over centuries or millenia and it only takes the tiniest nudge to let them slip.  Nature provides all the destruction.  There was a show on Discovery a while back about a scientist who had some preliminary data showing that a minor detonation -- on the order of single sticks of dynamite -- in the right spot could trigger a massive earthquake in a faultline.(NOTE:  If you're in an area with no faultline, then this one falls back into the 'idiotically powerful' range).

Satellite colony drop?  Orbits are incredibly fragile.  I got the sense -- which could be wrong -- that Ebenezzer didn't directly pull it down, just nudged it out of orbit on a specific course.  The media treated it as a natural occurrence, after all -- and a satellite suddenly falling DIRECTLY from orbit would be noticed... and could theoretically be explained without magic.  If your character has good Scholarship (and does the math), then puts enough distance shifts in to *nudge* an object most likely weighing less than ~1,000lbs (old Soviet probe, after all), gravity does all the real work for you.

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The REAL problem, in all of these cases, is the MASSIVE number of Lawbreaker feats you're going to rack up unless you're the Blackstaff.  We're talking instant-NPC for all of them, IMO.  None of these is precision work, after all -- part of the point in each case was to show the Council's policy of disproportionate retribution and ENSURE the other supernatural factions know who is to blame.

[Mickey Finn]

Players who try to throw around such magic should be mocked.

Not here, they shouldn't.

[Belial666]

They are Plot Devices.  As such, there are no mechanics that can adequately describe them.

Seeing as all of them were done by only one or two wizards, no, they are not. We are told, repeatedly, that sufficiently powerful wizards that have sufficient preparation can do awfully powerful stuff.

So, suppose someone was playing a senior-council-level wizard that could level a building or flatten hundreds of enemies with a wave of their hand. Seeing as their thaumaturgy should be proportionately stronger, the player should have the ability to at least do the lower-end examples from above. If not, there is no reason for them to have thaumaturgy at all.

[iago]

Not here, they shouldn't.

Agreed. Dishing out bullying language about groups you don't see eye to eye with is a fast track to me charging up ye olde banhammer. Don't make me swing it.

[Tbora]

Seeing as all of them were done by only one or two wizards, no, they are not. We are told, repeatedly, that sufficiently powerful wizards that have sufficient preparation can do awfully powerful stuff.

So, suppose someone was playing a senior-council-level wizard that could level a building or flatten hundreds of enemies with a wave of their hand. Seeing as their thaumaturgy should be proportionately stronger, the player should have the ability to at least do the lower-end examples from above. If not, there is no reason for them to have thaumaturgy at all.

This is kind of my take on the topic as well, their is no reason a sufficiently powerful enough PC (In Senior Council territory) couldn't pull it off imo.

[Belial666]

Which brings us back to the question;

How would one pull off such spells? And how would those spells be described mechanically?

[mostlyawake]

Great, now I'm going to have dreams about Mr. Hicks as a norse god wielding a magical Dur Banhammer. Wait, that's a good thing!  *quickly changes into pjs and dives for bed*

Seriously, we ran into a *problem* of sorts when we ran out of ideas for an appropriate scope of 500-1000 shift spells. One of my players has the idea of starting swingers clubs and then channelling that energy into spells... If you got 50 people a night doing this, you can pull of spells of easily 100 shifts.   So what happens when you've got 500?  Or you start a cult, get 2000 followers, and do a ritual?

A lot of the famous death cults/mass suicides were in the 60-300 member range.  If 300 people each give you 20 shifts of power... blamo, a 6000 shift spell.

Totally possible for a player to do. 

Yup, I get it that it's the job of the white council and such to STOP THIS MADNESS.  That's part of the game!

Still, what do you think a cult leader with 6000 shifts of power does?  (Other than to fake his corporeal death alongside his followers and become a god)?

[Belial666]

The average cult leader has a serious problem with really big rituals. To control power, you need Discipline rolls. And even if you got a Discipline of 4 and call only 1 shift of power per exchange, you are still going to fail in one roll out of 81 and have 80 shifts of backlash and fallout blow up in your face. So, regardless of how many sacrifices and time they could have, minor talents and even beginner full wizards cannot access rituals of significant magnitude.


Even if you got a full wizard with superb discipline, there is another limitation; time. When you cast a spell, you need to call shifts of power continiously. And by the time the spell is big enough to require hours to cast (more on that later), it will also be so exhausting physically to stand kneeling, keep chanting and waving foci and components that your control rolls should probably be limited by your endurance.

Now, assuming a wizard could focus, stand right and keep chanting without pause for 2 hours straight before endurance becomes an issue and that each thaumaturgy exchange is 20 seconds, they could cast a spell of Power equal to 360 times the number of shifts they can control per exchange.
If you assume a wizard could keep casting for 8 hours straight instead, they can cast spells of Power equal to 1440 times the number of shifts they can control per exchange.

So, an effective Discipline of 10 for a form of magic (meaning senior council or at least a master wizard with specialization and foci in that area), you are looking at 2.000 shifts to 8.500 shifts for the most powerful levels of wizardry barring a specialized senior-council-level archwizard.


A specialized archwizard like Ebenezar McCoy in Disruption or Cowl in Necromancy easily has fantastic discipline plus a +5 specialization plus +4 focus plus +2 or +3 effective Lawbreaker bonus. You are looking at 5.000 shifts minimum for a ritual taking them 2 hours to cast, as much as 20.000 shifts if they can keep continious casting up for 8 hours.



So, the power is probably there. But how are we doing the mechanics of using it? How would you force a volcano to erupt if you had 5.000 shifts of power available?