Kumori, Necromancy, and Saving Lives

[KOFFEYKID]

How exactly would you go about recreating the spell necromancy Kumori uses to keep somebody from dying? I was thinking it would require Kemmlerian Necromancy, and would be a binding targeting the soul, using the persons body as a container. Something like this:

Stay Death's Hand
Type: Thaumaturgy, necromancy (Kemmlerian Necromancy)
Complexity: 10 (varies with duration)
Effect: Binds the target's soul to his or her body for the thirty minutes, staying death's hand. Apply the "On the Edge of Death" aspect to the target for the duration of the spell.
Notes: This assumes the target is not resisting the spell, if so, the target may roll his Conviction, and apply that as a penalty to the caster's Discipline roll to control the spell.

Basically +5 shifts for covering physical stress slots, more may be requires for tougher creatures (who've suffered more damage), but this should suffice for most mortals. Add another five to make it last 30 minutes (should be long enough to get an ambulance to a hospital).

*edit*So for example Bob is dying, and he has 3 Physical Stress slots, so obviously all 3 of his are used up, if Kumori casts this spell on him, he can ignore the 3rd and second stress slots for 30 minutes, Bob might be able to get to a hospital by himself if his wounds dont prevent him from moving. Remember, Bob is still affected by all the consequences he's received along with the damage. A broken rib or two might keep him from being able to move around all together (he is after all, on the edge of death).

Another way I was thinking the spell could be made is as a threshold block vs the spirit leaving the body, but that wouldn't last very long.

[Mal_Luck]

I think in the book she gave them an hour, otherwise this looks interesting.

[AcornArmy]

Another way I was thinking the spell could be made is as a threshold block vs the spirit leaving the body, but that wouldn't last very long.

I've been thinking that Kumori used something more like this. She didn't say much about what she'd done in Dead Beat, but she did say this, when she was talking to Harry:

She was silent for a moment more. Then she said, "Do you know why Cowl has made a study of necromancy? And why I have joined him?"

"No."

"Because necromancy embraces the power of death, just as magic embraces the power of life. And as magic can be twisted and perverted to cruel and destructive ends, necromancy can be turned upon its nature as well. Death can be warded off, as I did for the wounded man that night. Life can be served by that dark power, if one's will and purpose are strong."

Kumori could've just been speaking metaphorically, but since wards are also a type of spell in the Dresdenverse, it seems worth considering that she might have been using the term literally. If Kumori knows of a spell which acts as a ward against souls, creating a barrier that they can't cross, it seems possible that she could encapsulate a human body with it and effectively trap that person's soul inside.

The spell wouldn't have to be able to get a grip on the soul, or manipulate it directly in any way. It would just have to create a wall that the soul couldn't pass through. After that, if the mortally injured person were taken to a hospital and stabilized, the body's natural processes could presumably handle the job of maintaining the soul's attachment to the body.

This actually seems to me like the simplest way to create a spell effect like that. The hard part is finding a spell that can act as a barrier to soul energy; after that, it's just a matter of wrapping the spell around a body before the soul departs for good.

Also, possibly on a tangent(or possibly not, depending on who Kumori turns out to be), it seems like Maggie LeFay could have used a similar spell to prevent Lord Raith from feeding. If the spell didn't actually target Raith so much as wrap around him, then I can see how it could act as a barrier between Raith's Hunger and the soul of his victim. The spell wouldn't be working on Raith directly, so his immunity to magic wouldn't be able to come into play. It would just be a ward, hovering there around him like an intangible, skin-tight bodysuit, preventing any soul energy from passing through it and into him.

[Becq]

Since death and dying is treated with a strong dose of hand-waving in this system, it could literally be as simple as using her Necromantic magic to place an aspect on the soon-to-be corpse: "Not dead yet!"  To last an hour (a scene or so) this would need to be Thaumaturgy-based

Alternatively, it could be treated as a replacement for an extraordinary emergency-room skill roll, thus stabilizing the dying person, at least for a while, keeping in mind that Thaumaturgy can solve improbable or impossible problems.

In both cases, its important to note that a Necromancer can cast Necromantic Thaumaturgy at Evocation speed.  Both of these would be fairly easy spells; complexity around 3 for the first option or maybe 4-8 for the second.

[wolff96]

Alternatively, it could be treated as a replacement for an extraordinary emergency-room skill roll, thus stabilizing the dying person, at least for a while, keeping in mind that Thaumaturgy can solve improbable or impossible problems.

In both cases, its important to note that a Necromancer can cast Necromantic Thaumaturgy at Evocation speed.  Both of these would be fairly easy spells; complexity around 3 for the first option or maybe 4-8 for the second.

I would say (if it came up in my game) that this is more in the 4-8 realm, since saving his life was impossible for the paramedics, but might have been possible if he was already at the hospital.  So I think your second interpretation is more appropriate than applying a long-lasting Aspect.

That aside, I think you're totally right about the Necromantic Thaumaturgy at Evocation speed -- I wouldn't let someone set up and perform a long ritual to handle this kind of thing (like with Biomancy) while the patient is bleeding out.  Given the circumstances, I don't think anyone other than a Necromancer COULD have saved that thug's life.  Even if you happened to have a White Council Master of Biomancy (like Injun Joe) right on hand with sufficient lore for the purpose, it would have taken him a few exchanges to run the ritual -- it was vital that Kumori could step up and stop him from dying RIGHT THEN before he could bleed out.

I wouldn't want to see that Thug's Mental Stress track after being preserved by Necromancy, though...  the way the paramedic described it was pretty creepy.

[AcornArmy]

[ Spoilers for Changes ]

That aside, I think you're totally right about the Necromantic Thaumaturgy at Evocation speed -- I wouldn't let someone set up and perform a long ritual to handle this kind of thing (like with Biomancy) while the patient is bleeding out.  Given the circumstances, I don't think anyone other than a Necromancer COULD have saved that thug's life.  Even if you happened to have a White Council Master of Biomancy (like Injun Joe) right on hand with sufficient lore for the purpose, it would have taken him a few exchanges to run the ritual -- it was vital that Kumori could step up and stop him from dying RIGHT THEN before he could bleed out.

Not that this has much to do with the mechanics of the RPG, but I'd bet that the only fundamental difference between evocation magic and thaumaturgy is the caster's own ability to perform one on the fly and not the other. By this, I don't mean to just restate the definitions of evocation and thaumaturgy; I mean that I think there is literally no real difference between an evocation spell and a thaumaturgical spell, other than the caster's own proficiency at casting the spell in question.

Harry says over and over again that magic is in the mind.

(click to show/hide)

In Changes, he even performs a summoning ritual entirely within his own imagination, and the spell works. The binding part of the spell was probably about as strong as a Kleenex, it still technically existed, to some degree.

I'd bet that if Harry practiced such a mental ritual over and over and over again, for years, he could effectively turn it into a form of evocation magic for himself.

I'd also bet that this is essentially the difference between the Senior Council and the younger wizards. The SC has so much practice and skill that they can snap their fingers and throw up a spell that would take Harry all day to perform, if he could manage it at all. And as their skill with those kinds of spells increased, new forms of thaumaturgy came into their reach-- things they probably couldn't even imagine when they were younger, much less have any hope of casting.

I started thinking this was probably the case when Harry's skill with Little Chicago jumped so much between Proven Guilty and White Night. In PG, he had to prepare for hours before he felt ready to use Little Chicago, and even then he wasn't sure about his chances. In WN, though, after teaching Molly for a year, it only took him fifteen minutes to get ready, and he had no worries about successfully casting the spell. I figure, in a few more years, Harry might be able to perform the spell immediately. It's also entirely within the realm of possibility for Harry to gradually remove the trappings of the ritual as he continues to practice, replacing them with their mental counterparts. Once he had removed all of the objects, he would have effectively turned a thaumaturgical spell into an evocation spell.

The same mental techniques that he used to prepare himself for LC probably carried over to some of his other spells, too-- which means that Harry was bringing a whole group of spells within reach of becoming evocation magic for him. And if Harry's skill could increase that much in only a few years, it's hard to even imagine how much the Senior Council's level of skill could have increased beyond a wizard's baseline. They've each had hundreds of years to practice, re-think what they know, and build on new insights.

Admittedly, though, Harry's increase in skill was largely due to taking Molly on as his apprentice. By teaching her, Harry was forced to go back and re-think things that he already knew, seeing them with a deeper understanding than he had the first time through. And Molly's natural talents lay in very different areas than Harry's do, so he had to practice with things he'd never been good at before, until he could cast those kinds of spells with a halfway-decent amount of skill. He probably wouldn't have made such a huge effort in those areas if he hadn't been teaching Molly. I'd imagine that most wizards don't have that kind of impetus to keep getting better, year after year; at least, not on a daily basis, like Harry's had lately. So, even some of the older wizards wouldn't necessarily have a huge advantage of skill over some of the younger ones.

People like the Senior Council members, though, are probably some of the more well-motivated types. It seems possible that their skills could have been increasing steadily for the last three hundred years or more.

[Wolfwood2]

I'd also bet that this is essentially the difference between the Senior Council and the younger wizards. The SC has so much practice and skill that they can snap their fingers and throw up a spell that would take Harry all day to perform, if he could manage it at all. And as their skill with those kinds of spells increased, new forms of thaumaturgy came into their reach-- things they probably couldn't even imagine when they were younger, much less have any hope of casting.

So mechanically, we might consider giving them "Sponsored Magic: White Council" to represent that they can cast familiar, well-honed, traditional wizard magic with the speed of Evocation?

[devonapple]

Maybe not Sponsored Magic, but perhaps some expansions to the scope of Refinement? Or buying outright Supernatural abilities (like fast shapechanging) and calling it "magic"?

[ralexs1991]

I'd do it as REALLY high refinement

[Belial666]

Mechanics-wise and depending on the council member in question, it is possible to cast thaumaturgy as evocation by the single expediency of having enough shifts.

For example, when making spells for a Wardmaster in the Senior Council, I initially made them as Thaumaturgy. But then I realized she could pull 20 shifts of evocation if she had a strong focus (she does) and she can cast some spells at evocation speeds. Hence, those 20-shift spells that would be mid-to-major level rituals for a beginner wizard? They are her basic Rotes.

And since a wizard like that knows she can pull off that kind of magics with a word and a gesture, she now understands the real limits of Thaumaturgy. Thus she could do Senior-Council thaumaturgy like McCoy to create volcanoes or call meteors from the sky. At least, she could have, if she did not follow the Laws.

[ralexs1991]

Mechanics-wise and depending on the council member in question, it is possible to cast thaumaturgy as evocation by the single expediency of having enough shifts.

For example, when making spells for a Wardmaster in the Senior Council, I initially made them as Thaumaturgy. But then I realized she could pull 20 shifts of evocation if she had a strong focus (she does) and she can cast some spells at evocation speeds. Hence, those 20-shift spells that would be mid-to-major level rituals for a beginner wizard? They are her basic Rotes.

And since a wizard like that knows she can pull off that kind of magics with a word and a gesture, she now understands the real limits of Thaumaturgy. Thus she could do Senior-Council thaumaturgy like McCoy to create volcanoes or call meteors from the sky. At least, she could have, if she did not follow the Laws.

that's some major bad@ssary seriouly that's some really cool stuff