5 Elements = At least 5 Different Ways to make veils?

[Lanodantheon]

Designing magic for a character whose magic is "Delicate but Powerful". But, Spirit is not one of her Elements.

How can you make veils with the other 4 Elements?

All I got is a Fire Spell that Purifies normality and destroys interest.

[wolff96]

Designing magic for a character whose magic is "Delicate but Powerful". But, Spirit is not one of her Elements.

How can you make veils with the other 4 Elements?

All I got is a Fire Spell that Purifies normality and destroys interest.

I would go a different way -- Fire and Air can both cause the same type of heat distortions in the air that cause mirages -- bending the light around the target.  Fire would be more obvious when used in this way -- shimmery waves, perhaps -- while Air could be used to directly bend the light like a lens.  (Especially with an Aspect like "Delicate but Powerful").

The easiest way to veil with Earth would be to raise something of a dust cloud or even generate dust devils in other locations.  The idea of a Veil is distraction, not necessarily to make yourself invisible.  In a direct fight, just putting a bunch of dirt in the air would result in a cloud that would make targetting the character difficult. 

Water is probably the easiest, IMO...  Think of Obscuring Mist if you've ever played D&D.  A nice thick fog cloud will make it incredibly hard to notice your caster -- and Dresden pulls that trick himself in Fool Moon to cover his escape.  (And he's not even that good at Veils!)

[Papa Gruff]

Some of the following has been said by wolff96...

In my opinion the only thing that could pull a veil of despite of spirit would probably be air or maybe earth (as the element of nature). To describe it you could take a leave out of the Codex Alera books. In the Alera setting air-crafters are capable to distort the atmosphere around them so that they get invisible. Wood-crafters can achieve a similar effect to camouflage them by influencing plant live around them to shield them from unwanted sight.

That are just some ideas. Veils like in the Dresden Files novels generally fall under the element of spirit. If you don't have spirit as one of your elements you have the option to be creative and try to describe the desired effect in a reasonable way through the elements at your disposal. If you can't manage that then you are pretty much screwed, as you are not supposed to be able to pull off every kind of magic. Certain element combinations are simply not able to pull of a veil in my opinion...

Edit: made a mistake with the members names... changed them.

[wolff96]

That are just some ideas. Veils like in the Dresden Files novels generally fall under the element of spirit. If you don't have spirit as one of your elements you have the option to be creative and try to describe the desired effect in a reasonable way through the elements at your disposal. If you can't manage that then you are pretty much screwed, as you are not supposed to be able to pull off every kind of magic. Certain element combinations are simply not able to pull of a veil in my opinion...

I guess it's important to define terms.  "Veil" has a kind of specific implication in the Dresden-verse, with Molly's invisibility being the prime example.  That kind of Veil would be (IMO) Spirit or Air only.

Usually, though, when people mention a Veil, they're really just looking for a Block on being noticed.  They want to toss up a spell that keeps the guards / were-beasts / evil fae / vampires from using Alertness to see them coming.  Kind of an enhancement to Stealth, more than anything else.  And that kind of spell could be easily created with any element, IMO. 

I think the key is to find out what the player is trying to accomplish -- if they're really looking for a true "Veil", that's one thing and can be hard to accomplish.  If they're just looking to be unnoticed, that's something else, even if the player CALLS it a Veil...  this is especially true of my players, since only one has actually read the books. 

TL; DR -- I agree on specific "Veils", but ensure that it's specifically what the player is trying to accomplish.

[Buscadera]

I would think that a creative player could pull off a veil with any of the elements. Each practitioner is supposed to be able to cover the spectrum of uses with their particular brand of evocation, otherwise every Wizard/Sorcerer build would have a set of "optimal" specialties.

Here's how I would make a "veil" for the other elements:

Fire - Shimmering waves of heat distortion. Like wolff96 said, this would probably be the best way to create a "veil" using the Dresden-specific definition of the word.

Water - Dense mist or Entropy shield. The first is simple, a thick mist that obscures vision. But for the other veil I was thinking that since water is the element of entropy, perhaps a spell could be worked out that caused other to "coincidentally" look away from the spellcaster. The veil creates a kind of lucky field in which the caster is preternaturally unnoticed.

Earth - Dust storm or Camouflage. Again, a dust storm could be used to obscure overall vision. I could also see the case being made for a camouflage spell that makes the user blend with his background like a chameleon. It might not be as effective as actual invisibility, but we are dealing with magic after all.

Air - Focus the air into a light-bending lens. Everyone here seems to agree that beyond Spirit, Air is the backup element of choice for would-be veil-casters.

[mostlyawake]

I'm just agreeing that any element can make veils.   Fire, air: images, earth: blend into surroundings, water: set a sheet of ice so fine that it refracts light around you perfectly.

The subtle vs powerful magic explored by molly vs harry is, in game terms, an effect of aspects, not the magic itself.

[MyNinjaH8sU]

An interesting thing to note is that if you disguise yourself via refracting light around you, you will also be blind.

[mostlyawake]

HA! Well, that's sort of what harry describes... his spirit veil is already murky and hard to see through.  You can imagine that doing it in a different way might create a situation where you can't see them, and they can't see you.

[babel2uk]

I'm not disputing the fact that you can create effects with the other elements that perform a similar function to a veil - obscuring a person or item from view - or that distracts the observer at a key moment so they are looking away from you as you pass. However the book defines a Veil (in the sense of proper light bending invisibility) as the special province of spirit magic, so I'd be wary of allowing any of the other elements to simply duplicate the effect of a veil.

[Belial666]

Depending on what your control flavor-wise is, anything is possible with anything. That said, here's how you veil with various standard elements;

Spirit: illusion images/invisibility, mentally withholding your presence / modifying the perception of others, manipulating light directly. (all senses possible - but effect is mental if not visual)
Air: manipulating light through lenses of air around yourself, silencing sounds, carrying away scents and other traces for other senses. (sight, smell, hearing, effect is physical)
Earth: manipulating light through magnetic/gravitic lenses, producing/altering your scent and other solid traces. (sight, smell, taste, magnetic, effect is physical)
Water: altering the coloration of your skin/hair/clothes like a chameleon, chemically removing scents and traces. (sight, but especially smell/taste, effect is physical)
Fire: manipulating/creating light, cooling down (thus obliterating) scents, heat and energy manipulation (sight, smell, broad-spectrum vision, effect is physical)


As you can see, it is far easier to veil vs all senses with Spirit - but against a mindless being or a machine, you'd be limited in your veiling.
Air is actually very good at sight/hearing based veiling, being able to physically alter sounds and images.
Water is more capable at veiling you from things with improved sense of smell/taste such as animals and a bazillion of nevernever creepy-crawlies.
Earth and Fire lack sound veiling but are best than all other elements in veiling you against machinery and long-range broad spectrum surveillance.

[Lanodantheon]

"Delicate but Powerful" is how I describe it to people. The character's actual Aspect reads, Even mass Destruction is Delicate Work

[Lanodantheon]

Actually there is one other thing that can bend light according to physics....Gravity.

[MyNinjaH8sU]

Sooo, you'd still be blind, but you'd be blind, separate subatomic particles?

[Ophidimancer]

Lets expand our concept of veils a bit, here.

Mechanically, a veil is a block against perception, right?  As such, you can see why Spirit is considered the premier element for building veils, because it handles both light and mental effects like perception, which are the two main ways that we, as humans, perceive things.

When thinking about the other elements, imagine the ways that other senses can be blocked.  They all have ways to mess with sight: Fire causes heat mirages to distort, Air and Water can both raise mists or fog, and Earth can probably do dust clouds.  Air can probably also Block hearing, while Water can block scent (think of running water fouling up tracking rolls), and Earth can make your step so light that you don't set off pressure sensors or leave footprints.

I would consider these all to be Veils, as they block perception of some sort, it's just that their applications are a bit more focused than Spirit veils.

[devonapple]

I feel there to be a subtle but important difference between an Alertness Veil (keeping someone from noticing you) and a Targeting Veil (making it harder to hit you). 

The "spirit" (ha ha) of the Spirit Veil is that people just don't notice the target, or you get the 'illusion' aspect of the discipline. You're in a 10'x10' room with a wizard, but you think you're alone until you start detecting other cues.

The complication with many of the other elements' approaches to the Veil maneuver is that they seem to draw attention to the target, even though they would also make it harder to get an accurate shot at the target. Every one of these veils would be obvious if cast in a 10'x10' room. A plume of fog, water or dust would be immediately visible, the heat waves probably less so.

But put these same "veils" in different environments, and they wouldn't necessarily be so obvious, and might just accomplish what every Spirit Veil could do.