Invoking an Aspect as lightweight spellcasting

[Ryan_Singer]

Great point.  Declarations are something that can easily be confusing.  That said, I think that Ryan's original concept -- which was coming up with a way to allow a very minor talent to produce very minor spells through invoking aspects rather than full-blown spellcasting -- is still feasible.  I think, though, that it requires a power to get access to (because you can't cast spells without either a power or a sponsor of some sort feeding you power), and given the costs and benefits of the power, 0-refresh seems not unreasonable.  At most, it would be 1 refresh, and could be thought of as adding a supernatural trapping to the character's aspect.

Another way of looking at this, by the way, is to note that supernatural (or supernatural-ish) characters can invoke their High Concept to represent capabilities that set them apart from humans.  What we're looking at here is a character that doesn't have any full powers as such, but has supernatural-flavored aspects.  They would have a Hedge Wizard/Witch template which contains no powers (other than a zero-refresh power that exists as a marker more than anything else) but would require an appropriate High Concept which is allowed to have supernatural effects.  This template would be distinct from the Pure Human template (because the character is not a pure human) and would not get the Pure Human bonus (but would have aspect-based supernatural capabilities.

There might be ways to abuse this that I'm not thinking of at the moment, but it seems reasonable.  It also allows for a subsequent smooth accumulation of power, should the player choose to do so.  As the character learns more about magic, he might 'trade up' the 0-refresh Hedge Magic power for a 2-refresh Channeling or Rituals, then later further upgrade to Evocation or Thaumaturgy, and perhaps ultimately learn enough to be considered a Sorceror or even a Wizard.

Ok. I like this. It's a zero-refresh placeholder power linked to a "magically active" template, that can eventually build up power if that's the direction the player wants to go.

[blues.soldier]

Ok. I like this. It's a zero-refresh placeholder power linked to a "magically active" template, that can eventually build up power if that's the direction the player wants to go.

In which case the template is NOT "Pure Mortal" and thus does not get the +2 Refresh. Pure Mortal is the only template that gets that benefit.

[MyNinjaH8sU]

Yep. I think this idea has a lot of merit though, personally. I would like to see the rules for it explored a little further.

[Ryan_Singer]

Yep. I think this idea has a lot of merit though, personally. I would like to see the rules for it explored a little further.

In terms of rules to explore, it's a pretty barebones idea. Template + high concept is enough for invoking for effect or for +2 to a roll. Otherwise, the character can grow by taking casting powers. Such a character could recruit a teacher, pick up thaumaturgy and eventually evocation and join the council.

Also, remember compels for accidental magic and hexing.

[Tsunami]

Ok. I like this. It's a zero-refresh placeholder power linked to a "magically active" template, that can eventually build up power if that's the direction the player wants to go.

It's actually something you don't really need.
Any pure Mortal can take powers later in the game. As long as there's refresh, and it's somehow fitting in the story.
You'd simply loose the +2 refresh bonus as soon as you take on any powers.

No placeholder power needed.

[sinker]

Yeah, but the power does take them out of the realm of pure mortal and into the realm of minor talent without needing to spend the refresh on large scale powers they don't want.

[Ryan_Singer]

It's actually something you don't really need.
Any pure Mortal can take powers later in the game. As long as there's refresh, and it's somehow fitting in the story.
You'd simply loose the +2 refresh bonus as soon as you take on any powers.

No placeholder power needed.

This was my original perception, too. It seems, though, that the consensus is that any kind of supernatural trapping requires giving up the pure mortal bonus, even if, mechanically, it's nothing more than a supernatural aspect and normal invokes and compels.

[Tsunami]

This was my original perception, too. It seems, though, that the consensus is that any kind of supernatural trapping requires giving up the pure mortal bonus, even if, mechanically, it's nothing more than a supernatural aspect and normal invokes and compels.

Ah ok now i understand, that requires the possibility of effects through Aspect compels and the like, which personally, i think is not how it works.
You don't get trappings through aspects. Aspects only provide legitimation for certain trappings.

As i already mentioned before, I think invokes, compels and declarations do not constitute effects a character generates. They constitute changes the player makes to the game world based on certain aspects of the character. From a character perspective they are not changes or effects at all, they don't happen... they just are.

So if you actually want the character to produce effects, you need a power, and as soon as you have a power you're not a pure mortal anymore. But even then, you cannot produce effects through aspect invokes or compels. So yeah, supernatural trappings of any kind, since they require a power, make you loose your  pure mortal bonus.

Anyways, that has nothing to do with being able to take on powers later. That's possible for any and all characters, pure mortal or not.

[MyNinjaH8sU]

So if you actually want the character to produce effects, you need a power, and as soon as you have a power you're not a pure mortal anymore. But even then, you cannot produce effects through aspect invokes or compels. So yeah, supernatural trappings of any kind, since they require a power, make you loose your  pure mortal bonus.

This is actually what I meant when I was saying I'd like to see the rules fleshed out for the power, I'm just bad at articulating when I'm in a rush.

I actually think this might work, more or less...

Hedge Wizard [-0]
This power allows you to use maneuvers as per evocation, with the restriction that the power may never be high than 3 shifts. This power also allows you to produce Minor Effects when and where appropriate. A character taking this power should have an aspect representative of it. Though not strictly required, players are encouraged to treat these effects with a certain theme, such as: Medicine Man, Hearth Witch, and the like.

[Tsunami]

This is actually what I meant when I was saying I'd like to see the rules fleshed out for the power, I'm just bad at articulating when I'm in a rush.

I actually think this might work, more or less...

Hedge Wizard [-0]
This power allows you to use maneuvers as per evocation, with the restriction that the power may never be high than 3 shifts. This power also allows you to produce Minor Effects when and where appropriate. A character taking this power should have an aspect representative of it. Though not strictly required, players are encouraged to treat these effects with a certain theme, such as: Medicine Man, Hearth Witch, and the like.

Well, thats way more useful than some of the Minor abilities from YS, even with the power limitation... so why would this cost 0 Refresh ?
I think it would definitely be a -1 power.

[Ryan_Singer]

I'd say that if you can do it using evocation style mental stress, it should cost a point of refresh. My original concept was that it would cost a fate point every time but not require a roll.

[Becq]

I'd say that if you can do it using evocation style mental stress, it should cost a point of refresh. My original concept was that it would cost a fate point every time but not require a roll.

Agreed.  And in either case, the effects should be limited to a single element/them/function/whatever, similarly to Channelers or Ritualists (but with much less capability).

Having the capacity for limited 3-shift magic sound like roughly a -1 power ... maybe.  Though really, if you want to be able to use magic for more than flavor-level tricks, you should take a spellcasting power.

[Sanctaphrax]

I might be in the minority here, but I might let someone keep the Pure Mortal bonus even if they weren't purely mortal. As long as their powers didn't do anything that stunts couldn't, I wouldn't have a problem. It doesn't unbalance the game and, since Refresh is an abstract rules concept, it doesn't affect the consistency of the game world.

That said, I like the first power writeup. Would you consider adding it to the custom power thread?

[MyNinjaH8sU]

That said, I like the first power writeup. Would you consider adding it to the custom power thread?

Are you talking about the one I wrote? How do you feel about the refresh cost. I think I agree that it should be [-1], the more I look at it.

[Sanctaphrax]

Sorry, I was unclear. I meant Becq's idea. Yours should indeed probably cost [-1]. But once you've raised the cost, you might as well offer attacks and blocks as well. Three shift evocation won't break any games, and when you take into account the lack of focus slots it looks quite reasonable.

Put it on the custom power thread if you want better feedback.