Blood Magic - Repercussions?

[Richard_Chilton]

But cutting people is faster - that's why people do it.

It's an easy shortcut that can lead to breaking the first law.

Richard

[Dwaleberry]

Hi,

Just wanted to thank you all for your very helpful input. I have come to the conclusion that Blood Magic per se isn't that much of a problem in-game wise, except for the whopping risk of a ritual going haywire and possibly killing the voluntary sacrificee (?), resulting in the thaumaturge becoming a Lawbreaker.

[Becq]

My two cents: if participation in the ritual is non-lethal, then it's fine as far as the Laws are concerned; if someone dies you get the Lawbreaker power, voluntary or not.  The Wardens will cause you problems if the participation was either coerced OR lethal.  That is, if you force someone to participate, the Wardens are going to take a dim view, whether or not a death was involved.

As to your particular example, the rules technically allow it.  That said, I think it has a great potential of becoming a problem, and I'd handle it this way, with one simple rule:

Sacrifice always counts as satifying your Catch.

Consequences of this sort represent a physical or mental draining more than actual trauma, which is what the Recovery powers are really geared toward.

If you need justification it would make perfect sense to discuss how metaphysically, the benefit to the casting is based on making a sacrifice, with greater sacrifice being worth more than lesser sacrifice.  Without this rule, the character with supernatural recovery who gives a severe consequence is making a sacrifice equivalent to a normal character who gives a mild consequence. 

Another way of looking at it might be to say that in essence, your powers acknowledge your free will to hurt yourself, and don't stand in your way.

[Tbora]

My two cents: if participation in the ritual is non-lethal, then it's fine as far as the Laws are concerned; if someone dies you get the Lawbreaker power, voluntary or not.  The Wardens will cause you problems if the participation was either coerced OR lethal.  That is, if you force someone to participate, the Wardens are going to take a dim view, whether or not a death was involved.

As to your particular example, the rules technically allow it.  That said, I think it has a great potential of becoming a problem, and I'd handle it this way, with one simple rule:

Sacrifice always counts as satifying your Catch.

Consequences of this sort represent a physical or mental draining more than actual trauma, which is what the Recovery powers are really geared toward.

If you need justification it would make perfect sense to discuss how metaphysically, the benefit to the casting is based on making a sacrifice, with greater sacrifice being worth more than lesser sacrifice.  Without this rule, the character with supernatural recovery who gives a severe consequence is making a sacrifice equivalent to a normal character who gives a mild consequence. 

Another way of looking at it might be to say that in essence, your powers acknowledge your free will to hurt yourself, and don't stand in your way.

I disagree with this completely, the whole point of the catch is that it is the /one/ thing which stops a supernatural being from being super tough or heal really fast.

A fast healer will /always/ heal fast so long as the catch is not involved every time, and their is nothing in canon to support such a house ruling or else it would likely have been included in the books.Plus it is listed as one of the ways to generate power in the Living With Magic section in YS indicating its a perfectly valid method.

Once you start house ruling it becomes a slippery slope, which is not a problem in and of itself, but its easy to take it too far and I'd say this is one of those cases imo.

[Becq]

I disagree with this completely, the whole point of the catch is that it is the /one/ thing which stops a supernatural being from being super tough or heal really fast.

Right.  The one thing, not counting other stuff that counts as satisfying a Catch.  For example, a WCV doesn't have a Catch with respect to Swords of the Cross ... yet Swords clearly count as Catch-satisfying nevertheless.

A fast healer will /always/ heal fast so long as the catch is not involved every time

I've put in bold the key part of this statement that makes it a non-argument.

Plus it is listed as one of the ways to generate power in the Living With Magic section in YS indicating its a perfectly valid method.

Please note that I am in no way suggesting that anyone should remove the ability of casters to power their spells via sacrifice.  Just that it makes sense that the sacrifice should be a sacrifice.

and their is nothing in canon to support such a house ruling or else it would likely have been included in the books.

While I think the DFRPG books are amazing, I stop short of claiming they are perfect in every detail.

Once you start house ruling it becomes a slippery slope, which is not a problem in and of itself, but its easy to take it too far and I'd say this is one of those cases imo.

As it stands, a rules-abusing player could spend 1 refresh to allow them to gain +19 toward their complexity requirement to Thaumaturgy per scene skipped.  How?  Simply buy Mythic Recovery [-6] along with The Catch: Only Works On Knife Wounds [+5].  Now each scene you skip, you can get the usual +1, plus you can inflict and immediately recovery from three mild consequences (+6), plus you can inflict a mild, moderate, and severe consequence which you will recover from before the next scene (+12).

If he had a partner with the same ability, that would go up to +37 per scene, and at a -1 refresh cost, why not have the entire group take it?  Five players each taking this would make it, what, +91 per scene?  Not only that, but they'd never have to worry about knife-wielding thugs again...

Combine this with a sponsored magic power that grants Thaum at the speed of Evocation, that translates to being able to cast death spells against people in combat simply by stabbing yourself while chanting.  Sure you need to make sure that you don't take another consequence before the end of the scene, but that's doable.

Frankly, I think I feel safer with the risk of maybe going too far down the slippery slope, thank you.

As always, this is my opinion.  I don't enforce rules for other people's games.

[Bruce Coulson]

A sacrifice that makes no sacrifice is no sacrifice.

And although you may be on safe grounds as far as the Laws of Magic are concerned, raising that kind of power routinely is going to get noticed.

So, I'd let it work; but there would have to be real consequences to the sacrifice, and some powerful players would take notice that your magician was willing to injure others in order to work his/her will.  Maybe they'd be willing to do other things...if the price was right.

[Tbora]

Right.  The one thing, not counting other stuff that counts as satisfying a Catch.  For example, a WCV doesn't have a Catch with respect to Swords of the Cross ... yet Swords clearly count as Catch-satisfying nevertheless.

The part of the SotC power, and the concept behind is that things are equal before the WG. and that it is leveraging its power to make it happen through the swords, which are a focus to atleast a couple billions worth of individuals belief. THis is the soul exception this (not counting the opposites nature of the Fae Courts magic against each other, and Soulfire, which is arguably from the same source of power as the SotC.)

While I think the DFRPG books are amazing, I stop short of claiming they are perfect in every detail.
As it stands, a rules-abusing player could spend 1 refresh to allow them to gain +19 toward their complexity requirement to Thaumaturgy per scene skipped.  How?  Simply buy Mythic Recovery [-6] along with The Catch: Only Works On Knife Wounds [+5].  Now each scene you skip, you can get the usual +1, plus you can inflict and immediately recovery from three mild consequences (+6), plus you can inflict a mild, moderate, and severe consequence which you will recover from before the next scene (+12).

If he had a partner with the same ability, that would go up to +37 per scene, and at a -1 refresh cost, why not have the entire group take it?  Five players each taking this would make it, what, +91 per scene?  Not only that, but they'd never have to worry about knife-wielding thugs again...

Combine this with a sponsored magic power that grants Thaum at the speed of Evocation, that translates to being able to cast death spells against people in combat simply by stabbing yourself while chanting.  Sure you need to make sure that you don't take another consequence before the end of the scene, but that's doable.

Frankly, I think I feel safer with the risk of maybe going too far down the slippery slope, thank you.

As always, this is my opinion.  I don't enforce rules for other people's games.

One major problem with this - blood sacrifice raised the /power/ of rituals not the complexity, which can be gained by ordinary means safely and efficiently with zero problem against the ritual, blood sacrifice is just faster.Its a short cut, but hardly game breaking - that is the mistake your making in this argument.

And another thing thing, sponsored magic is not just the speed but the /method/ of evocation.Your not raising complexity as with normal thamaturgy, your raising power and control with rolls like normal, even if you were right.

And also even if they were preforming normal thaumaturgy in combat, even at the fastest speeds it is still several minutes worth of effort.In that time you have been trying to raise that Uber Spell of Doom you know what has happened, the monster has taken your head off your ritual has been disrupted, and you have to deal with the massive amounts of backlash from the massive amount of power you just tried to harness and failed.

So in my opinion, your over reacting, and this is just my argument, but I feel you are well and truly wrong in this case.

Tbora

[Sanctaphrax]

I would just tell the player that what he is doing has the potential for abuse, and ask him not to abuse it. It's worth a shot, at least.

The rules for thaumaturgy have numerous problems, the worst of which is that there is no limit to what even the worst caster can do. It's just really easy to increase the complexity of a ritual. So if the real world worked according to the game rules, just about every wizard would have a strength 30 ward on his house.

You could houserule this, but I think Tbora is right about the slippery slope. Just try not to break the game, because it isn't all that hard and nobody will be impressed if you do.

[Becq]

The part of the SotC power, and the concept behind is that things are equal before the WG. and that it is leveraging its power to make it happen through the swords, which are a focus to atleast a couple billions worth of individuals belief. THis is the soul exception this (not counting the opposites nature of the Fae Courts magic against each other, and Soulfire, which is arguably from the same source of power as the SotC.)

That's a growing list of exceptions to The Catch mechanics.  I'm confused why you feel as though its somehow heretical to assume this list is not necessarily all-encompassing?

One major problem with this - blood sacrifice raised the /power/ of rituals not the complexity, which can be gained by ordinary means safely and efficiently with zero problem against the ritual, blood sacrifice is just faster.Its a short cut, but hardly game breaking - that is the mistake your making in this argument.

No, sacrifice is used to make up the complexity deficit ("For every consequence you are willing to take or inflict on others for the sake of preparation, add the value of the consequence in shifts toward the deficit").  So what you do is add +20 consequences (serious, moderate, and up to five milds if you have Endurance 5, otherwise four milds -- including the three insta-cleared milds from Mythic Recovery) worth of sacrifice to your Lore, then skip a scene (+1), which clears those consequences automatically (Mythic Recovery), and repeat.  And I'd forgotten the possible bonus mild consequence from Endurance 5 earlier; sorry.

You can also use the physical consequences to aid in your casting attempt by channeling more aggressively, then using the physicals to manage backlash.  This is a bit harder to control, though.

And another thing thing, sponsored magic is not just the speed but the /method/ of evocation.Your not raising complexity as with normal thamaturgy, your raising power and control with rolls like normal, even if you were right.

I don't see anything that says that Thaumaturgy-at-the-speed-of-Evocation can't use blood sacrifice as can any other Thaumaturgy.  Evocation can't use outside power sources, but Thaumaturgy can.

And also even if they were preforming normal thaumaturgy in combat, even at the fastest speeds it is still several minutes worth of effort.In that time you have been trying to raise that Uber Spell of Doom you know what has happened, the monster has taken your head off your ritual has been disrupted, and you have to deal with the massive amounts of backlash from the massive amount of power you just tried to harness and failed.

Right, which is why I mentioned the need for an appropriate Sponsored Magic if combat casting is desired.  But just the non-combat Thaumaturgy issues are enough for me to see a problem.

I agree with Sancta regarding player counseling as a solution, but it also appeals to me to come up with ways to make the system a bit more bullet-proof.  And saying that wound inflicted by ritual sacrifice qualify as The Catch is a simple, elegant way to plug this problem and make it so that Recovery cannot boost Blood Magic.

YMMV.

[Belial666]

Well, there is not real reason to use consequences to fuel a ritual. Let's say that my ritualist has Lore 5 (naturally), Discipline 5, Conviction 4, Resources 4.
In the same scene they make skill navel-gazing maneuvers as follows;
Lore: construct a "magic circle with arcane symbolism" (i.e. a circle with obscure runes), using "appropriately symbolic materials" (i.e. iron and copper wire for fae-summoning)
Discipline: focus to "clear mind of all disruption" and "chant preparatory spells in perfect cadence"
Conviction: call forth power to create "magically charged atmosphere" and rationalize for "believe truly it needs to be done"
Resources: buy "high-quality items" (NOT play-doh)
Then, having done all that, he tags the 7 aspects for +14 shifts of complexity. In the next scene, he simply repeats with other aspects - the only limit would be his creativity.


Secondly, someone with Evocation or any supernatural power that can do maneuers with a high chance of success, could apply a similar number of aspects using magic. Every single scene. And tag them for another +14 or so of complexity per scene.






So, why spend Refresh and consequences (which do pose a problem if someone interrupts the preparations) when you can do the exact same thing without spending anything at all? You can even do it faster and cleaner, too.

[zerogain]

Loopholes are easy to find in rules.  If the player's character is consciously exploiting loopholes to rules-lawyer the game, then the player should play an appropriate character.  His method of play indicates that unless an aspect already covers this, he should have one that indicates he's a weasel.  Obviously, it's very important to this character to walk the line and justify it, and then crow about getting away with it because the deed falls "in the rules".  By their very definition, that's an aspect.

Now, it'll help him walk the line, true, but it also means that others know he's that way, or will soon enough.

While he is perfectly by the book in using his ally's blood in this fashion, what exactly does the were-creature get out of this, WHY for the love of the fates, is he willing to sit in a sacrificial circle and bleed out for this wizard?  That's a HUGE commitment.  So again, the were-creature should have an aspect indicating his utter devotion and trust for this rascally rules-lawyer wizard.

If there's no such indications in place, then pick either a survival-based aspect or such and compel away.

[Belial666]

Harry Dresden summons the Erlking. In one scene. He uses multiple skill-created aspects to do so - in fact, he uses the same aspects I noted or very similar ones, except for the Resources one.
Similarly, a two-bit sorcerer ca do 32-shift heart-exploding spells repeatedly and pornstar witch wannabees perform major curses by drawing power from Outsiders.


High-power rituals are supposed to be possible. That is what makes wizards so terrifying if they are allowed to prepare.

[Morfedel]

Just my $0.02, the novels have continually noted the effects of moral justification and the road to black magic, warlock status, etc. If someone does x wig magic, it means that somewhere, deep down, they thinly its OK to do x.

 
Victor Sells didn't start off a bloodthirsty warlock, he evolved into one.

If I had a player do this one ime, just once, I'd probably let it ride. If they did it again... they just earned either an aspect change or a new aspect added.to the lot. Maybe like "The Road to Hell..." or "The Ends Justify the Means" or "Its Not Black Magic, no Laws Were Broken, So I'm Sure Just Once More Shod be Ok!" Or "The Slippery Slope," etc etc.

Then compel the hell out of it.   

[Becq]

Just as an aside, spending consequences on spellcasting is not automatically 'Blood Magic".  For example, you might give yourself the consequence "Dead tired after spending the night preparing".  Or you might simply be "Fatigued" by the drain of the spellcasting.  Other participants could likewise be "Fatigued" in lieu of having "Slashed wrists".  To a large degree, its about narrative.

Of course, if they die of massive fatigue ... well, dead is dead, with or without a knife involved.  Oh, hi, Mr. Warden!  How are you this fine day.  My, what a shiny sword you have there...

[toturi]

Loopholes are easy to find in rules.  If the player's character is consciously exploiting loopholes to rules-lawyer the game, then the player should play an appropriate character.  His method of play indicates that unless an aspect already covers this, he should have one that indicates he's a weasel.  Obviously, it's very important to this character to walk the line and justify it, and then crow about getting away with it because the deed falls "in the rules".  By their very definition, that's an aspect.

The problem is that the character is not the one exploiting the loopholes to ruleslawyer the game. The character shouldn't know that he is in a game. The player does, not the character.