Why is the white court catch worth +0?

[Tsunami]

If true love only counted as a catch when it was a person's love and not an item that carried that love I'd agree with you. But a character taking an autographed bat that a wife had given to her husband as an anniversary gift they could mess up a white court vampire pretty well. And it would be to hard for a character to get such an item. Its just a few contact and burglary rolls away.

The Problem here would be to verify said Bat as a token of True Love before you start pounding on the WCV.
As far as we know True Love is not the standard for relationships. "mostly true love" maybe, but thats not enough to hurt a WCV.

[Jaroslav]

The Problem here would be to verify said Bat as a token of True Love before you start pounding on the WCV.
As far as we know True Love is not the standard for relationships. "mostly true love" maybe, but thats not enough to hurt a WCV.

How do you verify a blessed item? As for a whether most relationships count as true love, I'm pretty sure a very large percentage of all relationships at any given time should count. Otherwise why are the white courts trying to make people love each other less if true love is already rare?

[Amelia Crane]

You make some good points Jaroslav.  Ones that I would be making, but after the first page I started getting afraid people would think me argumentative.

As for weaponizing love, here's what was in Blood Rites on the matter.  "Lara’s got a circular scar on the palm of her left hand where she picked up the wrong wedding ring. My cousin Madeline picked up a rose that had been a gift between lovers, and the thorns poisoned her so badly she was in bed for a week."  It seems all to easy to take that same ring and put it on and punch a WCV with it.

But really, I'm thinking that for me the best resolution to the discrepancy is Becq's.  The catch definitions are not very reasonable, and really should be fixed.

[Jaroslav]

You make some good points Jaroslav.  Ones that I would be making, but after the first page I started getting afraid people would think me argumentative.

Glad I could help. And don't worry to much about being seen as argumentative. As long as you don't start making personal attacks or ignoring people no one here is going to think of you as argumentative. Remember we're all friends here. 

[Richard_Chilton]

If true love only counted as a catch when it was a person's love and not an item that carried that love I'd agree with you. But a character taking an autographed bat that a wife had given to her husband as an anniversary gift they could mess up a white court vampire pretty well. And it would be to hard for a character to get such an item. Its just a few contact and burglary rolls away.

First a wizard would have to search for True Love.

Would this involve walking around with his Sight up until he spots it? I think not (not if he wants to stay sane) so it would have to be a spell... A seeking spell when he lacks any connection to the target... One that would have to cross threshold after threshold...  Just thinking about those multiple thresholds, the number of shifts needed is staggering.

Then, once he's found a couple in True Love, he has to find an expression of that love that can be used for a weapon.   The odds are very low.

Say he does find that Baseball Bat of Love.  After the first blow with it the White Court Vampire takes off at inhuman speed (maybe with a consequence) and later has someone deal with the bat of doom...

No, when you consider the amount of time and effort to get something with True Love that you can use as a weapon you'd be better off ignoring the catch.  It would be far less effort to get a mini gun, mount it on a jeep, and unleash massive damage on the vampire.  Or grenades, or some C4, or just multiple PCs unloading with shotguns.

But maybe I'm wrong.  I haven't really worked out the math for a "find True Love weapon" spell.  If someone wants to do the math and prove me wrong then I'll agree that True Love (or another emotion) should be worth more than -0.

Richard

[Nyarlathotep5150]

Here's a guide I used when running games: If it's possible then the players will think of a way of doing it.

It's possible that someone could find out the White Court secrets, so some will eventually do it.  It might take a while.  It might take several sessions and visits to obscure Lore Masters, but the PCs will eventually find out.

   I agree. The players are the heroes and they are going to learn the ways to thwart the bad guys, nomatter how unlikely it seems. That's the essence of the heroic story.
   The point I was trying to make there was more that people seemed to be rather flippant about the ease of acquiring this information, when from the books it seems like the white court weakness (and the inner workings/nature of the court itself), seems to be the best kept secret in the Dresdenverse. The only reason Harry knows this crap is because of Thomas and Bob (2 resources no one else has).
   So, in reality it seems like researching the White Court weakness would be on the hardest scale possible. Unless you can pull in a godlike source of information, your only way to get the info is to identify a WCV (they mostly seem human), walk up to him and go, "Hey, how can I kill you?"

As for weaponizing love, here's what was in Blood Rites on the matter.  "Lara’s got a circular scar on the palm of her left hand where she picked up the wrong wedding ring. My cousin Madeline picked up a rose that had been a gift between lovers, and the thorns poisoned her so badly she was in bed for a week."  It seems all to easy to take that same ring and put it on and punch a WCV with it.

   Okay, I remember that now. That does seem to augment the accessibility of true love. But then again, the defense of true love fades from people over time. Once the feeling itself begins to wane, the defense does as well.
    So even if they have true love at some point in the relationship, they only have the defense for as long as that feeling endures.
    It stands to reason that this limitation would apply to the symbolic representations of that love as well. Every sunrise is a new beginning, washing away magical energies, so you would have a finite number of days after the couple stopped constantly reinforcing the power of the symbol, before it stopped working.


   Also, on the note of there having to be a selfless sacrifice for it to qualify as true love. I disagree. Its the emotion that matters, not the actions or circumstances. That being said, if I where running a game, those sorts of sacrifices would be a large factor in my gauging whether a certain relationship qualified for the catch... So its really six of one, half-dozen of the other.

[Jaroslav]

    It stands to reason that this limitation would apply to the symbolic representations of that love as well. Every sunrise is a new beginning, washing away magical energies, so you would have a finite number of days after the couple stopped constantly reinforcing the power of the symbol, before it stopped working.

I don't think that's correct. If it were holy effects would also wear off, and they aren't mentioned to do so. I think that as long as an item was saturated in love it will say saturated in love until something desecrates that love in some way.

[Jaroslav]

First a wizard would have to search for True Love.

Would this involve walking around with his Sight up until he spots it? I think not (not if he wants to stay sane) so it would have to be a spell... A seeking spell when he lacks any connection to the target... One that would have to cross threshold after threshold...  Just thinking about those multiple thresholds, the number of shifts needed is staggering.

But in Proven Guilty Harry was able to find areas of intense fear were the fetches were feeding. And in Dead Beat Mortimer was able to search all of Chicago for necromantic energy. So a spell to to find strong sites of love wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility.  And magic isn't even needed to find an item that is likely to be wrapped in love. All you need for that is a good contacts roll. Then you just use magic to see if the rumors are true.

Then, once he's found a couple in True Love, he has to find an expression of that love that can be used for a weapon.   The odds are very low.

Here are a few examples of gifts that can be turned into weapons of the top of my head. Golf clubs, kitchen ware for those couples that love to cook,  a classic car if your partner is into that kind of thing, actual weapons if they re a collector, musical instruments, and the list goes on. True not all of these items make the best weapons but many them are at least serviceable.

Say he does find that Baseball Bat of Love.  After the first blow with it the White Court Vampire takes off at inhuman speed (maybe with a consequence) and later has someone deal with the bat of doom...

That can apply to any catch. The fact that a character can potentially avoid the catch does not invalidate it.

No, when you consider the amount of time and effort to get something with True Love that you can use as a weapon you'd be better off ignoring the catch.  It would be far less effort to get a mini gun, mount it on a jeep, and unleash massive damage on the vampire.  Or grenades, or some C4, or just multiple PCs unloading with shotguns.

Not really. An antique  set of golf clubs ,or any other such item,  given as an anniversary gift would be much easier to get a hold of and you wouldn't have to answer any awkward questions from the police. Or to put it another way. I've have seen many more objects wrapped in true love in my life than mini-guns or grenades.

[Tsunami]

Here are a few examples of gifts that can be turned into weapons of the top of my head. Golf clubs, kitchen ware for those couples that love to cook,  a classic car if your partner is into that kind of thing, actual weapons if they re a collector, musical instruments, and the list goes on. True not all of these items make the best weapons but many them are at least serviceable.

The item in question has to be a "Token of Love"... I'm sorry, but Golf clubs, Kitchen Ware, or Baseball Bats are not likely to be Tokens of romantic Love. Sure, they do exist, but I'd say its far more likely that less weaponly... weaponal?... weaponish?... (yes, those are now valid words ) Items are used in displaying romantic love.

[Blackblade]

The item in question has to be a "Token of Love"... I'm sorry, but Golf clubs, Kitchen Ware, or Baseball Bats are not likely to be Tokens of romantic Love. Sure, they do exist, but I'd say its far more likely that less weaponly... weaponal?... weaponish?... (yes, those are now valid words ) Items are used in displaying romantic love.

I agree, a simple gift between lovers should not suffice.  If you give your significant other a golf club or a frying pan, the gift is appreciated because they enjoy golfing/cooking.  Is love involved?  Probably, but it isn't the most important component of that gift.  If, on the other hand, you give them a rose, the gift is appreciated because its primary purpose is the symbolic expression of love. 

[Kaldra]

think, the scarf Thomas gets, he had to be careful not to touch it, while he could still hold other things that he received from... uhhh.. blast mind blank.

[Tsunami]

think, the scarf Thomas gets, he had to be careful not to touch it, while he could still hold other things that he received from... uhhh.. blast mind blank.

Justine

[Richard_Chilton]

I don't think that's correct. If it were holy effects would also wear off, and they aren't mentioned to do so. I think that as long as an item was saturated in love it will say saturated in love until something desecrates that love in some way.

Umm, just to point out something - the quote thing didn't quite work for your reply there.  It has you quoting me when Nyarlathotep5150 was the one who said that True Love would wear out.

I, on the other hand, think that emotions might be written over.  That if a psychopath wears a wedding ring that was imprinted with True Love that his hate would overwrite the other emotion.

But in Proven Guilty Harry was able to find areas of intense fear were the fetches were feeding. And in Dead Beat Mortimer was able to search all of Chicago for necromantic energy. So a spell to find strong sites of love wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility.

Fear taken to a high level by a supernatural thing feeding.  Necromantic energy.  Neither sounds much like True Love.

Love rarely has anything to do with sites.  It rarely stains on the world.  What we are talking about is assessing the emotional level of everyone in the city - most of whom would be behind thresholds.  It looks as if we differ over whether this is possible.

And magic isn't even needed to find an item that is likely to be wrapped in love. All you need for that is a good contacts roll. Then you just use magic to see if the rumors are true.

I can just see how that would go...
"Well, my parents love each other so all of their of their gifts to each other will count... WTF DO YOU MEAN YOU DON'T SENSE TRUE LOVE ON THE TOASTER MY DAD GAVE MOM FOR THEIR ANIVERSARY!!!"
Or
"WTF do you mean that something from my mom doesn't count! She does too love me!"

There's love, everyday love, and then there's True Love.  Jim Butcher has defined it as a two way street where both sides would sacrifice everything for the other - like O'Henry's "The Gift of the Magi".  He has even said that you don't have it between parents and children because children can't return that level of love.  The average couple would have their ups and down, maybe having periods of True Love, but most couples can't maintain that level of love.

Here are a few examples of gifts that can be turned into weapons of the top of my head. Golf clubs, kitchen ware for those couples that love to cook,  a classic car if your partner is into that kind of thing, actual weapons if they re a collector, musical instruments, and the list goes on. True not all of these items make the best weapons but many them are at least serviceable.

I can't see most of those things as being an expression of love.  I'd say that the food might have love baked into it, but I have difficulties seeing it attached to the cookware.

Most of the items that the books have talked about aren't mere gifts but symbols.  A wedding ring.  A rose exchanged between lovers.  A scarf that was knitted with love (not one that was bought, but one that was handmade for a loved one) that is worn only because your lover made it for you - that's something special.

I can see handmade items, things that someone laboured over because they loved someone, holding love more than a gift bought in a store.  Or something that is an everyday symbol of that love.   But the average gift... no, I can't see True Love as something that marks everything exchanged by two lovers.

That can apply to any catch. The fact that a character can potentially avoid the catch does not invalidate it.
Not really. An antique  set of golf clubs ,or any other such item,  given as an anniversary gift would be much easier to get a hold of and you wouldn't have to answer any awkward questions from the police. Or to put it another way. I've have seen many more objects wrapped in true love in my life than mini-guns or grenades.

This is where we are going to have differ.  I don't see the average anniversary gift as being marked by True Love.  Now one that is cherished everyday, that every time you look at it you think of your loved one, that I can see.

Because if everything that was ever exchanged between lovers was imprinted with True Love then White Court vampires couldn't walk down the street.  That guy's hat was a gift from his wife, and that guy's jacket was too, and her husband bought her those boots, and... No, I can't see it happening.

It looks like we are going to have to agree to differ on this one.  I see items that are imprinted with True Love as being rare and hard to use as weapons, to the point where it would be easier to get AK47s and mini-guns than finding something that can exploit the "True Love" catch.  That finding something that can exploit that catch is so hard to do that the catch might as well not be there - hence it being worth zero points.

After all, if items imprinted with True Love were that common then Lara would never pick up any wedding ring.  She isn't scarred from countless rings - just "the wrong" one.  And True Love can't be that common or the White Court wouldn't have many victims to choose from.

Richard

[Richard_Chilton]

Yes, I'm replying to my own post - mainly because I just thought of something and I hate to edit posts.

Note that the below has spoilers for the short story Love Hurts, which I first found in Side Jobs, so if you haven't read it then you might not want to highlight the text:

(click to show/hide)

In Love Hurts, someone is artificially inducing love - which (when it was between inappropriate people) caused some murder / suicides which brought Murphy in and she called Harry in and... He doesn't use a "detect love spell".  So after lots of work they get a led, a public place where many people go (no threshold) and... no spell work.  No looking for things imprinted with love - and since they are looking for a spot where couple fall in love with each other that place should be imprinted by dozens of people.  Virtually no spell work at all - just detective work.

Which, in my mind, says that you can't just zap a spell off to find traces of love.

Richard

[Nyarlathotep5150]

I don't think that's correct. If it were holy effects would also wear off, and they aren't mentioned to do so. I think that as long as an item was saturated in love it will say saturated in love until something desecrates that love in some way.

  Except those aren't even remotely the same thing. A Holy item is deliberately consecrated by ritual magic to its function, then used consciously and consistently toward that effect (thus constantly reinforcing the initial faith magic that went into it).
   And thats not even counting the fact that Holy Items are in actuality dedicated to "God", and from then on he runs the show on how they function. They're really just Sponsored magic in item form.
   Love Items where never deliberately consecrated by ritual magic to their purpose. They just picked up some subconscious magic energy via a couple exchanging gifts.
   A more apt comparison would be of the difference between Enchanted Items and potions. Potions are made quickly and with a minimum of ritual enforcement, so they only hold a charge for a couple days. As where Enchanted Items are made via a long and elaborate ritual to dedicate them to their purpose. Thus Enchanted Items hold their charge longer.
   But both Items still have to be periodically reinforced or they will eventually succumb to the grounding effect of the Dawn. In the case of Holy Items, it is assumed that "God" is either pumping a steady stream of power into them (The Swords of the cross), or that the Holy Orders are periodically reinforcing the dedication ritual.
   The basic Entropy of the universe is a big part of Dresden Quasiphysics, and nothing can ignore it completely... except maybe "God", but that goes back to the Holy Items being just Sponsored Magic items theory.