Aspects in Combat

[Morfedel]

what do you mean by "magic can only do 1 stress per turn?"

Did you read the whole thread?

[Morfedel]

Noclue, babel, etc: my problem is this. Venomous claws add an aspect and does continuous damage. Environmental effects the gm has in the story can do damage.

But, if, for example, I want to set a building or person on fire, all it does is add an aspect that if not compelled or invoked or tagged or whatever, does nothing.

Even then, it doesn't do damage; at best, only increasing the damage of some attack external to the  aspect itself.

And that, to me, is the problem. It creates an intellectual disconnect, especially when you have venomous and environmental on one side doing it one way, and aspects doing it a completely different way.

Does my complaint make sense now?

[babel2uk]

OK, yes that does make sense. having re-read a few passages grapple may not be appropriate. It could be used for smaller fires that wouldn't necessarily be immediately life threatening (arguably being on fire is a block against casual dinner conversation . The way I see it working is this:

If the building is on fire then the proximity of the fire to the PC dictates whether the fire just prevents them doing certain things (like following an NPC through a collapsing doorway - a compel), or aids one party or another in their action (throwing a bolt of fire at the enemy by tapping into what's already there - invoke). If the fire is close enough to actually have an effect on a character then the Environmental damage rules kick in - which work almost identically to venom - bearing in mind that if the fire is severe enough then everyone in the scene suffers the same effects.

Unlike Venom the character has the chance to put themselves out by rolling on the floor etc, rather than waiting to just be treated by a doctor, with the strength of the fire being the attack roll. The attacks also may not just stop when a character is taken out if there are still consequence slots available.

Since the environmental damage rules say to treat the environment like an actual opponant you may also allow the fire itself to maneuver to add the aspect of ON FIRE to the character and then tag it to add more damage, but it's more likely to be used by someone attacking you saying that you're so distracted by the fire they get a bonus to their hit. Or you could invoke it to aid in a grappling maneuver - nobody likes to be that close to flamey boy! Or compelled when you're about to roll on the floor to put out a flaming sleeve and you notice that pool of gasoline creeping across the floor towards you...

It's not perfect, but the system isn't supposed to be a crunchy true life simulation.

Edited to make Morfedel happy! 

[Morgan]

Noclue, babel, etc: my problem is this. Venomous claws add an aspect and does continuous damage. Environmental effects the gm has in the story can do damage.

If Venomous Claws is what's giving you all the confusion then I think that might be your problem, that is an extremely potent and costly power that should be an exception to the rules not the baseline. It has the same cost as picking up Evocation, Thaumaturgy, or a Sword of the Cross! It is a power that should be reserved for some of the true nasties of the Dresdenverse. The effect of Venomous Claws is so nasty that I wouldn't use it to model normal poison in my games, having a snake bite or a envenomed dart hit a character and I would hit them with a consequence of "SNAKE BIT" or "POISONED" and compel the hell out of them rather than use the Venomous Claw special rules.

Whereas anyone with a little accelerant and a box of matches can set something "ON FIRE". Also most things that you maneuver an "ON FIRE" aspect onto are going to spend at least one of their turns trying to put it out, so that takes up their action for the turn allowing you to hit it again for free with a free tag. Being "ON FIRE" in FATE sucks enough without having to add damage on top of it. It is the same thing with being "PINNED" or "KNOCKED PRONE" folks who have those aspects maneuvered onto them are going to have to give up at least a round trying to get rid of them.

I'd play it by the rules they do work. But if it really bothers you so much I have a very simple solution for you, in your game let them take environmental damage if you feel it is necessary. Ta-Dah!

[noclue]

Noclue, babel, etc: my problem is this. Venomous claws add an aspect and does continuous damage. Environmental effects the gm has in the story can do damage.

But, if, for example, I want to set a building or person on fire, all it does is add an aspect that if not compelled or invoked or tagged or whatever, does nothing.

Even then, it doesn't do damage; at best, only increasing the damage of some attack external to the  aspect itself.

And that, to me, is the problem. It creates an intellectual disconnect, especially when you have venomous and environmental on one side doing it one way, and aspects doing it a completely different way.

Does my complaint make sense now?

I understand the complaint. I just want to point out that the damage is basically just leading up to the creation of aspects as consequences. They just take time. A maneuver is creating an aspect now and skipping all the lead up.

Does the game favor ripping through people with poisoned claws rather than having them take stress from being in a burning building? Yup. The GM can make the fire relevant with environmental damage if they think damage from the fire is interesting. Players don't get to do that. Players get to create aspects and make attacks.

[Morfedel]

Morgan: your answer re: venomous makes sense, but what about the aspects vs environmental damage? And sure, 3 refresh for a power should be nasty, no doubt, but the rules should be consistent, and as I point out below, they aren't.

Babel: first, I have two words for you. Paragraph breaks.  :-)

Second, I suppose so, but it drives me nuts, because essentially they have three different rules for when a continuous damage event occurs:

1. It's from venomous claws. Take continuous damage.
2. It's from the environment. Take continuous damage.
3. It's from a character - get compelled, invoked, tagged, whatever, but regardless dont take continuous damage.

My setting them on fire, or the building for that matter, should be no different than if The environment does it. It's different rules for different situations for basically the same thing.

You don't want to power venomous though... I will probably make some rule that allows someone to sacrifice shifts to add appropriate ongoing damage. Like, 2 shifts, then rest of shifts becomes an ongoing attack until removed... or 2 shifts per 1 shift of ongoing attack or something... and something similar for enviromment, with an additional charge for effecting the zone as normal.

[Morfedel]

Well, tell you what, I'll try it as-is for now. It isn't a problem with the fact I think the rules are broken. I just dislike the different rules for essentially.same situation thing.

But, who knows,.after running it for a bit, I may decide it doesn't matter.

[Becq]

Just as an aside, unless the venom-claw attacker noticeably outclasses the victim, that poison damage isn't going to be all that different than grapple damage.  The 'base damage' is equal to the attackers Fists (unmodified) and the victim resists with Endurance.  If their skill levels are comparable, than the expected result is 0, with the average over time being maybe 1-2 or so.  But even ignoring this, each tick of damage is still going to mark off only a single stress box per exchange.  After the first one-stress hit, there is not actually any difference at all between a one-stress hit and a two-stress hit.  And after the first two one-stress hits, a three-stress hit is no different than a one-stress hit.  In either case, the damage just becomes a clock that measures how long it will be until you get to consequences (or concession), and the chance the victim has of rolling high and taking no stress for a given round makes the venom clock slower.

This is less true for a more powerful attacker (and/or a defender with little endurance), but the main result of that is still just a shortening of that countdown.

In any case, by simply enforcing the environmental rules in situations you feel are important, you can solve your problem (and give the characters piles of Fate, too!)