Combat Thaumaturgy?

[Ophidimancer]

Wouldn't that just be a simple evocation block? Otherwise you're getting all of the effects of an Evocation block at no cost whatsoever.

Except that simple circles won't stop all attacks, just ones that are purely magical.  An Evocation Block can be used to Block anything.

[babel2uk]

Every time Harry uses a circle - as far as I remember - he infuses it with his will (which sounds a lot like stress to me). A far as modelling non practitioners using a circle goes I have no idea what the game designer's intentions were about it. I do recall Butters had to use his blood to power the circle (which would be physical stress rather than mental). Perhaps when a pure mortal creates a circle in that way it just works to compel certain creature's high concepts. I seem to remember another thread discussing mortals drawing circles, but I can't remember of there were any definite conclusions drawn as to how to handle it.

[Ophidimancer]

Every time Harry uses a circle - as far as I remember - he infuses it with his will (which sounds a lot like stress to me).

Maybe, but not necessarily.

A far as modelling non practitioners using a circle goes I have no idea what the game designer's intentions were about it. I do recall Butters had to use his blood to power the circle (which would be physical stress rather than mental).

Just a pricked finger?  I don't think so.

Perhaps when a pure mortal creates a circle in that way it just works to compel certain creature's high concepts. I seem to remember another thread discussing mortals drawing circles, but I can't remember of there were any definite conclusions drawn as to how to handle it.

I still think the easiest way to model it would be to just use a Lore roll.  I try and avoid complications when I can.

[Drashna]

Personally, I treat circles as a very weak threshold. Functionally, that *is* what they are.  And if I had to determine strength, use conviction.  It's magic, it's all about belief.

[babel2uk]

Maybe, but not necessarily.

Just a pricked finger?  I don't think so.

I still think the easiest way to model it would be to just use a Lore roll.  I try and avoid complications when I can.

I'm no longer sure where this is going. I only originally pointed out that Evocation sometimes uses Thaumaturgy trappings. So not everything in the books that looks like very fast Thaumaturgy necessarily is Thaumaturgy. I then pointed out that what was being said about a circle was basically an Evocation Block - no need to create new rules to cover it.

Yes the Butters situation is an anomaly that the rules don't really cover. But I stand by the comment that the description of Butters closing a circle should constitute physical stress. Bearing in mind (as I appear to be repeating in several threads today) stress is not in and of itself true damage - for physical stress it's near misses, fatigue and minor cuts and bruises.

I also stand by the comment that - as far as I can recall - every time Harry uses a circle, he infuse it with his will (regardless of whether it's evocation or thaumaturgy. Which makes it Mental Stress if you're using that circle as an evocation block.

And an Evocation Block doesn't just stop everything. It can be used to block a specific thing, but you have to dictate when you cast it what exactly it's protecting against. So my point still stands. If you allow it as a Lore block (which personally I wouldn't) you are giving a non practitioner the effect of an Evocation Block against Magic at no cost. If you're happy with that then fine, I have no problem with it. I'm just explaining why I personally do have a problem with it. I'm quite willing to be argued around if someone raises a point that solves my concerns.

[Morfedel]

Actually that isn't quite true.  First time Harry did it he explained exactly what he was doing.  Circle of chalk/salt, a drop of blood, and finally the key part the "WILL".  Actually based on Changes, an entire circle could be done completely without any prep and done completely in the mind, however doing it with the items makes it much easier.  When it's required to add WILL or the entire idea doing the entire ritual in the mind just screams mental stress.

All magic requires will, thaumaturgy included. A number of examples of this in the book exists, so yes, it is true.

EDIT: see my next post below before replying

[Morfedel]

Every time Harry uses a circle - as far as I remember - he infuses it with his will (which sounds a lot like stress to me). A far as modelling non practitioners using a circle goes I have no idea what the game designer's intentions were about it. I do recall Butters had to use his blood to power the circle (which would be physical stress rather than mental). Perhaps when a pure mortal creates a circle in that way it just works to compel certain creature's high concepts. I seem to remember another thread discussing mortals drawing circles, but I can't remember of there were any definite conclusions drawn as to how to handle it.

And again, this has been true of thaumaturgy.

Well... not making potions. But when he has used circles to summon, he has, and THAT is thaumaturgy too. I suppose it could be argued either way, however.

[Morfedel]

I'm no longer sure where this is going. I only originally pointed out that Evocation sometimes uses Thaumaturgy trappings. So not everything in the books that looks like very fast Thaumaturgy necessarily is Thaumaturgy. I then pointed out that what was being said about a circle was basically an Evocation Block - no need to create new rules to cover it.

Yes the Butters situation is an anomaly that the rules don't really cover. But I stand by the comment that the description of Butters closing a circle should constitute physical stress. Bearing in mind (as I appear to be repeating in several threads today) stress is not in and of itself true damage - for physical stress it's near misses, fatigue and minor cuts and bruises.

I also stand by the comment that - as far as I can recall - every time Harry uses a circle, he infuse it with his will (regardless of whether it's evocation or thaumaturgy. Which makes it Mental Stress if you're using that circle as an evocation block.

And an Evocation Block doesn't just stop everything. It can be used to block a specific thing, but you have to dictate when you cast it what exactly it's protecting against. So my point still stands. If you allow it as a Lore block (which personally I wouldn't) you are giving a non practitioner the effect of an Evocation Block against Magic at no cost. If you're happy with that then fine, I have no problem with it. I'm just explaining why I personally do have a problem with it. I'm quite willing to be argued around if someone raises a point that solves my concerns.

I disagree. When even a mere mortal can do such a simple act with just a drop of blood, this is clearly not evocation. And the author was quite clear in making it obvious that anyone that knows how to do it can do so, quite easily. Our favorite hellhound gunslinger guardian of the Archive is not a spellcaster (although not human), and he caged Dresden quite easily; Butters did so as well, with zero training in magic whatsoever.

So, now that I think of it, though Lore sounded cool, I think maybe a straight roll of discipline or conviction might actually be more appropriate... perhaps as a stunt though? To represent that you have to know about it, and you have to pay for it to know it?

[Ala Alba]

Eh, I'd just make it a maneuver with Lore to place a circle-related aspect. Give it a base of 3-4, with an extra 2 for a larger circle. In fact, for characters with low Lore you could make it a challenge over multiple exchanges. Once the circle is in place, the GM simply compels the High Concepts of whatever is needed to replicate the effects of the circle. If something magical with a will tries to get through your circle, make an opposed roll with Conviction, tagging or invoking the circle as appropriate.

Seems pretty straightforward.

[Ophidimancer]

Eh, I'd just make it a maneuver with Lore to place a circle-related aspect. Give it a base of 3-4, with an extra 2 for a larger circle. In fact, for characters with low Lore you could make it a challenge over multiple exchanges. Once the circle is in place, the GM simply compels the High Concepts of whatever is needed to replicate the effects of the circle. If something magical with a will tries to get through your circle, make an opposed roll with Conviction, tagging or invoking the circle as appropriate.

Seems pretty straightforward.

That seems like a good solution, too.  what do you do about spell effects, like the Mind Fog in the Walmart?

[Ranma1558]

Thaumaturgy in combat "should" be allowed, we've seen it in the books and makes sense mechanics wise. As for how long it should take is a bit rougher. I use a set up found else where in the forms as a base.
1:Prep work: Just because you HAVE everything you need to set up the spell doesn't mean you have the spelled laid out in front of you. Look at the loupgarou fight in Fool moon, Harry has enough time to explain the simple concepts of the thaumaturgy after getting all the items while setting them up.This should be an exchange by itself easy. Remember you need a link to the target that, for all likely hood, needs to be found and use, add a second exchange.
2:Making the mental construct: everything's laid out now you have to focus on what you need the spell to do, form a container to pour your energy into. Add a another exchange.
3:Pour the power :  use normal rules here
4: Pull the trigger: at the end of this round you let the spell go. From above you've added an extra 4 exchanges into the equation if you have to.

Now, depending on how fast pace the action is (a knife fight in a phone booth at the far end of this) you might say every two or three exchanges of everyone else counts as 1 exchange for the wizards, but, for the most part, even the most rushed gun fights and what not is a game of cat and mouse trying to get the other guy when he fowls up and a one to one ration isn't off the wall.

As for magic circles I usually make them thresholds with their power equal to the characters conviction or discipline, with a few declarations and aspects the creator can make (usually just "magic circle" for wizard types but for mortals they get, "Empowered by my blood" or something {at a single stress}, giving them a +4 boost)

[Ala Alba]

That seems like a good solution, too.  what do you do about spell effects, like the Mind Fog in the Walmart?

That's a compel against whoever set up the spell.

[Morfedel]

So, for the magic circle question we have:

1. It's evocation - don't like it, non-spellcasters have used it before.
2. It's fast Thaumaturgy - questionable, he whole "at the speed.of.evocation" issue, plus, see #1 above.
3. Using Lore as a block - this is pretty cool methinks
4. Using Conviction as a block - also cool, and prob a bit better as butter probably has a low lore. Or,  maybe he invoked aspects to make up for it it lore?
5. Using Lore to establish an aspects for compels - also cool
6. Using Conviction after purchasing a stunt. My idea, but I like it too

The problem with all of these is that the circles seemed pretty much impervious to magic, so much so they seemed nearly plot-device level, though easily disrupted by mundane means, and you are immobile while there.

[Drashna]

On the last bit, definitely.  At the very least, you'd apply a number of negative aspects on yourself to set up the circle. And a non-caster, I'd personally say, the best you can do is a 3 shift "block". 

And I suspect that the reason it's left out of the book is that the entire mechanics around it are too shaky and probably should be left to storytelling.

[Belial666]

A couple of things;

1) A circle won't stop the more powerful spells. Otherwise, all Dresden had to do back in the pornstar sorceresses case was build a circle to avoid the curse. I'd treat a circle as a Legendary threshold only against supernatural acts, reducing all magical attacks by 8 shifts. It would block up to mid-level evocations but nothing really powerful.

2) A long-standing circle needs some sort of supernatural power source. We have seen this at least twice.