Sponsored Thaumaturgy as Evocation Question

[MyNinjaH8sU]

Simple question, and I think I know the answer, but I would like some confirmation: when using sponsored magic such as Seelie or Unseelie magic, and casting Thaumaturgy as Evocation, do you incur mental stress as when casting an Evocation?

[deathwombat]

Aarrrghhhhhh!!!!!

[Sanctaphrax]

Whoa.

Does this question hurt you physically, mr. wombat?

While I can't find a specific answer in the core book, I'm pretty sure that you take the stress.

[MyNinjaH8sU]

Hmmm, interesting. I originally thought of it as the opposite, since thaumaturgy in general runs with such higher numbers, and using the evocation method of casting would require you to take a significant amount of mental stress when casting even a relatively simple thaumaturgy spell.

Except, now that I think about it, thaumaturgy doesn't really use conviction much, does it...

I would think that, in lieu of mental stress, the issue would be one of complexity, since there wouldn't really be a lot of options to tag set up aspects for on the fly thaumaturgy, so it would probably balance out, hopefully.

I'm going to they and think up some examples. I'm going to be playing a Knight of either Summer or Winter in the near future, so I figured I would try and iron out the kinks in advance so that I don't elicit the same reaction from my GM as Mr. Wombat here. 

[Drashna]

There is a sidebar on this.  IIRC, yes, it's casting evocation with thaumaturgical effects. (including using conviction/disciple to cast).


Yar, it's YS288:

When you see this phrase in the power
sources listed starting on page 290, here’s
what it means:
ŠŠ The spell is still limited to line of
sight, like evocation.
ŠŠ The spell is cast like evocation:
power first, control later, all done in
one exchange.
ŠŠ Thaumaturgy’s set of effects are
broader-reaching, not constricted
by the straight-line force principles
of evocation. With the power
source, you get access to the listed
set of thaumaturgic effects (often a
thematic grouping of some sort) as a
viable effect of an evocation spell. So
you might be able to throw together
a small ward quickly, summon a
minor creature extra-quick, or cast
a curse of decay with the flick of a
wrist. In these cases, use what would
have been the complexity of the
thaumaturgic effect as a guideline for
the power of the evocation.


This may seem like a bit of a shell game,
since the sets of mechanical effects available
to thaumaturgy and evocation are pretty
similar, with only a few areas of non-overlap.
You’d be mostly right, but for this point:
getting a broad range of effects out of evocation
is an exercise in creative rationalization.
What the power source is offering in this
specific case, then, is a broadening of what
you don’t have to rationalize. It’s just quickly,
easily available to your spellcaster. Combine
this with a few mechanical benefits available
with each source and it’s a definite upgrade
to a character’s arcane options.

[MyNinjaH8sU]

Aha! I had read this sidebar, but I am very happy you brought it up, as rereading has made it make a lot more sense to me. I think I had just gotten quite confused between all the myriad examples and caveats throughout the section on Sponsored Magic.

[Drashna]

And yeah, I had to re-read the book a few times to get most things. And I'm *still* missing things!

The examples of sponsored magic give you the theme for what thaumaturgy can be "evoked". Like Kemmlarian magic allows you to animate and mind-bend as evocation. 

[MyNinjaH8sU]

Very cool. So I guess that means I could kinda have Rote Thaumaturgy spells as Evocations!

Hrmmm.. This requires some further consideration for my knight. I suppose the shifts of power in this case is determined like the complexity?

In example: the Winter Knight needs to help his comrades gain entry to a well fortified house, but the condition of the building doesn't much matter to them. Using evocation as Thaumaturgy, he accelerates entropy and rot on the building, permanently weakening the structure, and allowing it to be broken into with little effort.

How would one determine the power needed for the spell? Would you work out the complexity of the thaumaturgy as peer normal, and simply use it like the shifts of power that would be necessary to summon via conviction?

[crusher_bob]

Sounds like a maneuver (normally power 3) possibly effecting more than one zone (+2 power per different zone), and/or possible inflicting multiple aspects at once.
Or, if he is using it to make a hole, it's just an attack with different narration.

So what's the advantage of generating a maneuver with a zone wide effect?  It individually effects each thing in the zone separately, potentially giving you the ability to tag the maneuver generated aspect once for each thing in the zone.  This would be handy, for example, if you wanted to break several walls, not just one.

[Drashna]

MyNinjaH8sU: that is completely applicable. Either with Unseelie magic, or certain "places of power" (leylines mainly).  And you'd determine complexity as normal, but you'd use conviction for power and discipline for control (well that part is normal)... At least that's how I read it.  Oh and "or cast a curse of decay with the flick of a wrist." as per the book and my quoting of it! Oh, and "In these cases, use what would have been the complexity of the thaumaturgic effect as a guideline for the power of the evocation."


And I'd say crusher_bob has about the right idea for shifts.  And i'd say it inflicts one aspect "Accelerated delay", would shoot for a "mild consequence", so it'd require at least 3 shifts of power, and 2 more for the zone. (IIRC)

But if this was done against a house/fortified area, just remember that it 'd be opposed by somebody's wards so may need a lot more UMPHFF.

[Tsunami]

Basically "Thaumaturgy at Evocation Speeds and Methods" adds a certain type of Thaumaturgy as an evocation "element"

Evocation Methods include:
Conviction limiting base power (overcasts are possible of course, but incur extra stress)
Rolling Discipline once to control said power.

So, those spells work like any other evocation, they simply have a different scope of effects.
Lore looses influence on said spells when cast at evocation speed.

Example:
Thaumaturgy (Divination) at evocation Speed and Methods. (Conviction 5/Discipline 5)

A Tracking spell with power 5 can be cast for 1 mental stress.
With Overcast, a tracking spell with power 7 can be cast for 3 mental stress.

Now, if the caster has a Thaumaturgy specialization in divination, those bonuses add into casting said spell, whether they are cast as evocation or thaumaturgically.
A +2 complexity bonus on thaumaturgy (divinations) would allow for the aforementioned tracking spell with power 7 to be cast for 1 mental stress.

Regardless of power, be it overcast or "safe" powerlevel, as an evocation the spell must be controlled with a single discipline roll.

Also, you still need a symbolic link to cast certain spells, you simply don't need the whole circle/ritual dance to perform it.

[MyNinjaH8sU]

Alright, that makes sense. So, in this case, having a high Lore is still beneficial because when you do need to take your time, it will still govern complexity as normal, but if you are going to move up to evocation speeds, I suppose the initial complexity isn't really limited in the same way, since you can just overcharge it?

[Tsunami]

Alright, that makes sense. So, in this case, having a high Lore is still beneficial because when you do need to take your time, it will still govern complexity as normal,

Exactly.

but if you are going to move up to evocation speeds, I suppose the initial complexity isn't really limited in the same way, since you can just overcharge it?

Yupp, since Lore governs Thaumaturgy, and you are now using evocation rules, power is "limited" by conviction unless you pay extra stress, just like any other evocation.

[MyNinjaH8sU]

Very cool. Thank you very much for the help!

I do have one more, tiny question, slightly off topic:

When I'm creating a focus item for my character here, and trying to determine an element, would it make sense to divide up Winter into its own subset of elements? i.e., Ice, Entropy, Darkness? Or am I gimping myself here, and Winter is its own Element, just as if I was playing a Focused Practitioner who would never need to focus on an element besides fire?