Creating duplicates while Out Of Combat

[ironpoet]

I'm interested in creating a wizard who creates mirror images of himself while out of combat to safely scout ahead (or to safely talk to an enemy without making himself vulnerable).  I'd be interested in knowing how other people would build this.  What would you consider the complexity to be?  How long would it last?  What limitations would it have?  Etc.

The Intent: The intent is to make a duplicate that can scout instead of the wizard.  The wizard would stay behind in a trance, while his duplicate could scout ahead, but be unable to cast spells or manipulate objects.  This would basically be mobile scrying, plus the ability to project image and sound.

I'd also be interested in how much added complexity it would take to have:
- A duplicate that could cross thresholds
- A duplicate that could impersonate someone/something else
- A duplicate that could manipulate objects
- A duplicate that could cast spells
- A duplicate that could act independently of the wizard (or fight beside him)

I expect that some of those enhancements would push the complexity outside of mortal reach, but I'd be interested in how people would calculate the complexities.

[MijRai]

Well, I'd say make it a base of 3, just to have an illusion of yourself. Add more for more realism.
Add a shift for controlling it, another for being able to sense through it, another to communicate with it as the mouthpiece. Add more for distance (maybe a shift for every mile or so), and have an excess in shifts greater then the threshold you want to pass, if the GM doesn't just compell that it doesn't work.
You'd need a part of someone/something in order to impersonate them, in my opinion.
To manipulate objects, I'd say you need to add another 3 shifts or so in order to make it an ectoplasmic body to do so, although doing that would make it susceptible to being attacked via mundane means.

7 Shifts of power lets you have it go up to a mile away, while you are able to talk, sense, and make it move about. Make it 10 if you want it to open a door, or be able to enter a Good Threshold.

[Papa Gruff]

The answer is "it depends" ... as usual. You just can't create a thaumaturgic spell that costs the same every time. To many factors have to be considered.

As a basis I think you could use the Extended Divination Spell example YW 297. Technically, following the rules and the canon you can not simply project yourself to any place you desire. You always need a link to the place or the person you want project yourself to. But of cause there are some tricks, like silly string or playdough or stuff that can work as your link if you place it in the location you want to project to.

If you are using some part of a person as a link then the base difficulty is the targets conviction+4. If you use the trick link or something from the place you are trying to project to it would be at least +7 (+3 for creating a scene aspect +4 as per the conviction rule). If you have to cross a threshold to reach your target then its value gets added. The same for wards or other defenses. If you succeed against these obstacles you project a spectral form to the place of your desire that vaguely resembles you (like Victor Sells does in SF). You can avoid being seen, but this raises the difficulty of the spell, probably by a great deal (at least +2 for sight and +2 for sound in my opinion). Add difficulty for duration and you are there.

If you project yourself, you are in no way immune to possible counter attacks. A wizard that is present at the scene you project to and becomes aware of your presence can totally try to disrupt your link. He also might try to send energy through it, to try to harm you. In other words you might get in trouble after all. (Think the divination Harry attempts in WN, when he tries to spy on the Malvora WCV and Cowl)

So that's that:
- You can cross thresholds. Their difficulty gets added to the spell.
- You can impersonate someone. The difficulty that gets added is somewhat problematic. I am fuzzy on that.
- If I'd allowed it the spell would have to have some kind of conjuration (YW274) in it, to create an ecto suit the caster can wear. According to rules that would add at least +5 to the difficulty, but probably some more because a human is bigger then a frog and more complicated.
- The duplicate will in no circumstance be able to cast spells. At least not in my game. Period. Evocation energies have to be channeled through the real thing.
- An independently acting humanoid form?! Are you serious? A frog that hops a round a little bit is +5 shifts. A walking, creatively thinking, fighting mirror image... well a hell of a lot probably *g*

So ... if you have a good link and nothing gets in your way the difficulty would be Conviction+4 + duration. For someone with conviction at mediocre thats a base difficulty of 4 for the duration of one scene (15 minutes). It probably would be far more (the book speaks of 8-16 shifts and thats not counting the conjuration stuff if you want to be able to move things).

Keep in mind that you will not know some variables of the equation in most cases. So you have to create more shifts just to be on the save side ...

[ironpoet]

As a basis I think you could use the Extended Divination Spell example YW 297. Technically, following the rules and the canon you can not simply project yourself to any place you desire. You always need a link to the place or the person you want project yourself to. But of cause there are some tricks, like silly string or playdough or stuff that can work as your link if you place it in the location you want to project to.

Well the idea is to conjure a duplicate where you are now, and then send it ahead.  So creating a link should be relatively trivial - just use something you have on you right now (drop of blood, piece of hair, etc.)  That link would then, theoretically, be a part of the duplicate wherever it goes.  I don't think Conviction should come into the cost at all, since you're not trying to locate someone or something via the spell.

If you project yourself, you are in no way immune to possible counter attacks. A wizard that is present at the scene you project to and becomes aware of your presence can totally try to disrupt your link. He also might try to send energy through it, to try to harm you. In other words you might get in trouble after all. (Think the divination Harry attempts in WN, when he tries to spy on the Malvora WCV and Cowl)

Well, sure, if you come up against something with mental/emotional/spirit powers, you're going to be vulnerable.  No defense is perfect, but you should still be safe from most forms of Evocation, gun shots, falling rocks, etc.

(For the record, I'm only about half-way through the books, so sadly most examples from them will be lost on me!)

[Papa Gruff]

Well the idea is to conjure a duplicate where you are now, and then send it ahead.  So creating a link should be relatively trivial - just use something you have on you right now (drop of blood, piece of hair, etc.)  That link would then, theoretically, be a part of the duplicate wherever it goes.  I don't think Conviction should come into the cost at all, since you're not trying to locate someone or something via the spell.

It really doesn't matter if you are in the next room or in the same room or anywhere. You can only use the divination through a thaumaturgic link. So if you want to make an "image" it will not be able to move around unless the object/person it is linked to does.

Obviously you may create a conjured construct from ectoplasm and animate it with your mind through divination, which will be taxing to say the least. This then will be able to walk around and talk and do basically everything you could. Question is, what happens the real body if you're animating the ecto suit? What happens if the spell gets interrupted? What happens when the ecto suite gets destroyed while you are channeling?

It really comes down to what you and your group and your GM are deciding on. To me at least it sounds like a mighty dangerous undertaking that faces similar problems to shape shifting around through thaumaturgy... Yet, if you and your game table don't see a problem then there is non. There is absolutely no reason why you wouldn't be able to make it work somehow.

(For the record, I'm only about half-way through the books, so sadly most examples from them will be lost on me!)

Sorry then ... I hope I didn't spoil to much.

Honestly I'd like to hear some more opinions on this one ...

[Becq]

My thinking is that you would use either Conjuring or Summononing to do something like what you're suggesting.  With Conjuring, you're basically crafting a body that looks like you out of ectoplasm, then giving it rudimentary animation.  Either you'd control it completely (in which case you'd have to give it full concentration, but it would be as believeable as you're capable of making it), or you'd control it via sent commands (it would follow one command until you sent it another, freeing you to do other things, but leaving it less able to respond to unforeseen circumstances), or it would operate under a preprogrammed set of commands (autonomous, but uncreative).  This would be the equivalent of Greater Glamours, though likely with less finesse.

The other option would be to summon ... Something and creating a body for it (as above) that looks like you.  This would allow the 'copy' to think for Itself ... which could be good or BAD.  I'll let you decide where the emphasis should be on that last sentence.

In either case, the copy would likely be entirely unable to cross thresholds, could impersonate someone no better than you (or the Something) could, could certainly manipulate objects, could NOT cast spells (unless the Something could), with independence described as above.

That's my take on the subject, at least.

[rpmarsh]

Maybe if you used a spirit and constructed a body in the shape of the wizard. The spirit does not have to be too powerful, just smart enough to do as it is told. Perhaps a copy cat spirit, a spirit of identity, or something along those lines.

The other direction would be to create a magical construct based around yourself, think of a clone only with magic instead of science. Use a little bit of yourself and a lot of ectoplasm with sympathetic magic you could puppet the figures. Or if you invest enough of yourself into it than they could have a semblance of life.